Moguls and foot pressure

[Prosper]

The Tom Gellie - Parallel skidding to carve thread got me wondering about foot pressure and moguls. In moguls are the general principles the same as when carving regarding foot pressure moving from more forward to more back as the turn progresses from the top to the bottom? I’ve been really trying to work on skiing from my feet up and sometimes struggle in the moguls with being too far back (like many others). With the added balance challenges that moguls provide it’s been a bit more difficult to focus on foot pressure. In moguls I generally try to ride a flatter ski and, just after absorption of the mogul, use more pivoting and rotary motions to initiate the turn. Thanks!

 

[Henry]

When you say foot pressure I think of left or right. For fore & aft, I think of the skis' position under the body's center of mass. If you pull your skis back behind you, you pull the ski tips down toward the snow. If you push the skis forward, you lighten the tips on the snow. Rule of thumb--if your ski tips are off the snow, you have no control. So--you want the tips engaged in the snow as you begin down each mogul. Pull the skis back under you at the start to get the tips down so you have the opportunity for control. As you progress down the mogul, extending your legs, get ready for the surface transition at the bottom of the bump by pushing your skis forward to lighten the tips and easily ride up the top of the next bump as you flex your legs to absorb. It's actually a smooth movement. Other things that doom mogul skiers are twisting the body around toward the hill and leaning back toward the hill. Bad dog, no biscuit. Look a bump or two ahead to decide where to plant the pole and where you want to go for the next bump. Reach way down the hill so the pole plant brings your upper body along with it.

 

[Sanity]

There are lots of schools of thought on this, and we all could probably argue about it for days. Competition mogul style advocates continuous forward pressure. In a carve turn, the skis follow a different path than the center of mass and this causes the skier to be aft at the end of the turn. Then the skier readjusts during transition. There's relatively lots of time during transition to readjust. Mogul skiing doesn't have such large edge angles, so this effect is less, but instead there's the bump that can tilt the skier back, and in order to keep from getting tilted back, the skis have to come forward during absorption. There's less time in transition, and being forward is critical as soon as possible on the backside while skiing in a direct line, so great effort is given to pull the feet back after cresting the bump.

 

[Prosper]

In a carve turn, the skis follow a different path than the center of mass and this causes the skier to be aft at the end of the turn. Then the skier readjusts during transition.

If I interpret this correctly, the readjustment during transition is the toppling that @tomgellie talk about.

There's less time in transition, and being forward is critical as soon as possible on the backside while skiing in a direct line, so great effort is given to pull the feet back after cresting the bump.

I think this is where I’m struggling. Any tips or drills that you’d suggest to work on for pulling the feet back?

 

[geepers]

Some Gellie bump porn.

Rounder line:





More direct line:




If you want to know his thoughts on the topic there's hours of mogul skiing instruction/webinars at Big Picture Skiing - just do the dot com thing. There's a lot more than foot pressure. This freebie from a few years ago.

 

[Sanity]

If I interpret this correctly, the readjustment during transition is the toppling that @tomgellie talk about.

I think this is where I’m struggling. Any tips or drills that you’d suggest to work on for pulling the feet back?

Going the comp route, you practice first on the groomed; weight shift, knee roll, good cuff pressure throughout the entire turn until you shift weight to the other foot. Though, it will be tough to know you're doing it right without someone to give you feedback. Then you have to practice absorption and extension going over easy bumps or waves maintaining your upper body positioning regardless of the bump below. Start without turning. That's the tough part to practice if your resort only has steep, big, double black moguls. You have to find those easy blue moguls if you can. Go across the mountain without turning at first just to practice absorption and extension.

 

[Noodler]

Any tips or drills that you’d suggest to work on for pulling the feet back?

Keep it simple. Doesn't matter what line you choose through the moguls, your #1 thought should be "heels to a$$". Do that and you'll keep yourself out of major trouble. The biggest issue for most skiers in the moguls is ending up in the back seat. When that happens it's usually pretty much over.

Once you have that movement down and you can properly manage your fore/aft balance through an entire mogul run, you can start worrying about all the other stuff. You can ski an entire tough mogul run purely through using great A&E and with very little concern about the turns you're making. You can't do any of the other stuff if you're not in balance and able to pressure the skis correctly.

 

[Crank]

I can only speak for myself and my answer is no. Forward, forward, forward, in bumps. When carving a groomer maybe front to back along the edge. This was actually more an old school, straight ski technique that fell by the wayside when shaped skis took over as it was no longer necessary. Then, as carving became more and more...extreme, for lack of a better word, the fore to aft thing once again became a thing. That's how I see it anyway.

 

[Prosper]

I think where I get a bit back is going down I tend to push my tips down into the trough to maintain ski-snow contact. When I do that I’m rearward and have to allow my weight to move more forward when absorbing the next bump. If I absorb with my weight on my heels I stay in the backseat when going down the trough which makes it even harder to keep my skis on the snow.

 

[Prosper]

…your #1 thought should be "heels to a$$".

Are you pulling your heels up after absorbing the bump?

 

[Rod9301]

If I interpret this correctly, the readjustment during transition is the toppling that @tomgellie talk about.

I think this is where I’m struggling. Any tips or drills that you’d suggest to work on for pulling the feet back?

No, it's not topling, the upper body stays more over the skid 5, laterally.

You pull your feet back using the hamstrings.

 

[Rod9301]

I think where I get a bit back is going down I tend to push my tips down into the trough to maintain ski-snow contact. When I do that I’m rearward and have to allow my weight to move more forward when absorbing the next bump. If I absorb with my weight on my heels I stay in the backseat when going down the trough which makes it even harder to keep my skis on the snow.

If you'd pull the feet back as you're cresting, you will be centered. Pushing the ski tips down is the wrong move

 

[Rdputnam515]

Good skiers make moguls look easy, great skiers make moguls look like a groomer.

the best way to learn how to ski moguls: learn to ski them one bump at a time. Figure out how to deal with the one, stop find another and reset. do it again. Then ski two bumps and do the same. Then three,4, 5 etc.

build off of one and then link more. It sounds stupid but it works. It shows you how to dynamically balance. It shows you how to begin to read a line, where to break a line off and join a new line.
in my opinion this is the fastest way to progress into a mogul skier

 

[Prosper]

If you'd pull the feet back as you're cresting, you will be centered. Pushing the ski tips down is the wrong move

After cresting and absorption of the mogul is an extension move to get tall again. What‘s the relation of COM and BOS and where if the pressure on under the feet during the extension phase of the turn?

 

[Noodler]

Are you pulling your heels up after absorbing the bump?

You're pulling your heels up TO absorb the bump.

Watch a really good mogul skier from the side and note how their upper body is not moving up and down even while their lower body is going crazy like a human jackhammer. I almost feel like I'm trying to completely "skip" the moguls by hopping over them. Of course this doesn't actually happen as my skis rarely are leaving the snow and I can't jump over the moguls from the troughs in front of them, but it's the "intent" that provides the focus that achieves the outcome.

Put another way, you shouldn't be "riding" up the frontside of the mogul with your body straight and tall (from the side your upper body would be going up), instead absorb the bump by pulling your heels up. If you focus on trying to bend your knees to absorb a bump, most likely your a$$ is going to drop back and you'll be in the back seat. Pulling your heels up (and keeping them back to your a$$) accomplishes three key things; 1. It provides the flexion at the knees to absorb. 2. It provides the fore/aft management to keep your weight from falling back. 3. It serves to pressure the shovels of the skis (it keeps your "front wheels" down so that you can steer).

 

[Sanity]

After cresting and absorption of the mogul is an extension move to get tall again. What‘s the relation of COM and BOS and where if the pressure on under the feet during the extension phase of the turn?

After you crest the bump, straighten your core as if you're falling on your knees. Stay forward on your cuffs, and the extension is done for you with no more effort as the skis level out underneath you. This gives you speed control and extension with very little energy output. Instead of thinking about your tails or hockey stops to slow you down, think about the tip biting in on the backside, slicing across and driving into the trough straightening out your legs.

 

[Roundturns]

You're pulling your heels up TO absorb the bump.

Watch a really good mogul skier from the side and note how their upper body is not moving up and down even while their lower body is going crazy like a human jackhammer. I almost feel like I'm trying to completely "skip" the moguls by hopping over them. Of course this doesn't actually happen as my skis rarely are leaving the snow and I can't jump over the moguls from the troughs in front of them, but it's the "intent" that provides the focus that achieves the outcome.

Put another way, you shouldn't be "riding" up the frontside of the mogul with your body straight and tall (from the side your upper body would be going up), instead absorb the bump by pulling your heels up. If you focus on trying to bend your knees to absorb a bump, most likely your a$$ is going to drop back and you'll be in the back seat. Pulling your heels up (and keeping them back to your a$$) accomplishes three key things; 1. It provides the flexion at the knees to absorb. 2. It provides the fore/aft management to keep your weight from falling back. 3. It serves to pressure the shovels of the skis (it keeps your "front wheels" down so that you can steer).

Received this same advice years ago from the late legendary “Mogul Matt” who slayed the nastiest icy bumps out at Seven Springs with never being a bobble.

 

[Prosper]

After you crest the bump, straighten your core as if you're falling on your knees. Stay forward on your cuffs, and the extension is done for you with no more effort as the skis level out underneath you. This gives you speed control and extension with very little energy output. Instead of thinking about your tails or hockey stops to slow you down, think about the tip biting in on the backside, slicing across and driving into the trough straightening out your legs.

This reminds me of the move @tomgellie discusses at around 2:08 in this video: .
This is the move that I’m struggling with. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Noodler]

After you crest the bump, straighten your core as if you're falling on your knees. Stay forward on your cuffs, and the extension is done for you with no more effort as the skis level out underneath you. This gives you speed control and extension with very little energy output. Instead of thinking about your tails or hockey stops to slow you down, think about the tip biting in on the backside, slicing across and driving into the trough straightening out your legs.

Not calling you out Sanity, but just pointing out that instruction that is devoid of the specific movements that create the "input" is less valuable in my view. The "stay forward on your cuffs" is an outcome, not the movement that creates that. What movement are you suggesting in order to stay forward on your cuffs?

 

[Sanity]

Not calling you out Sanity, but just pointing out that instruction that is devoid of the specific movements that create the "input" is less valuable in my view. The "stay forward on your cuffs" is an outcome, not the movement that creates that. What movement are you suggesting in order to stay forward on your cuffs?

No worries. Everybody has their own perspective. We can share them, and people get something out of it or not. Though, in this case I can't take credit. I'm just relaying how a U.S. ski team member taught it to me. It doesn't do much for you, maybe not for many other's as well, but I was really impressed and got a lot out of it which is why I pass it on. Take it or leave it. I don't care.