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Moguls and foot pressure

Rdputnam515

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In my mind, mogul skiing comes down to the turn, which is the same turn to be practiced on a groomed run. I've pursued a particular style of mogul skiing that is direct and takes a particular type of turn. It's an easy turn to do on the groomed, but hardly anyone does it. It's worth spending a year, several hours each day doing these turns down the groomed. After you have it perfectly drilled, it's a neat feeling when you realize that you've automatically done this turn in the bumps, just combined with A&E. Normally, I wouldn't bother trying to explain this turn, because many others want you to do a different type of turn. Then we'd argue when people tell me my turn is a terrible turn to do. But, since you asked me specifically, I will give you my opinion.

Narrow stance, weight shift, tip the ski with knee angulation, shoulders square facing down the hill, hands in front flicking the pole plant out to the front, continuous cuff pressure throughout the entire turn (by pulling the feet back with the glutes and hamstrings, don't want to be reprimanded by Noodler again)

If you skip a few seemingly tiny details, the entire thing falls apart. The point is to get the ski to pop in a quick turn all on it's own. If the technique isn't right, the ski won't pop, and the turn will be too slow for the bump line.

If you let the shoulders lean, then you've decreased your hip angulation which decreases the edge angles. Since we're very upright with very low edge angles to begin with, that tiny bit of difference causes the ski grip to decrease, so the ski smears instead of pops, and it won't come around in time. So, you really do need to pinch the grape between the rib cage and the hips to keep the shoulders level. It does make a difference.

Forward pressure is huge, because it gives speed control with the tip biting in, and also the skis pop faster, so keep those hands out front (while still comfortable), not to the side. Every bit of COM forward helps as long as you're in a productive athletic stance that's comfortable and relaxed.

Upper and lower body separation is absolutely necessary to tip the ski with enough edge angle and forward pressure, otherwise ski won't pop.

Even for people that can start a turn with forward pressure, it's very common for them to release that pressure at the end of the turn, but then you lose your speed control. Keep the pressure on the cuff all the way until you step to the new ski. Let the ski do the work. If you have trouble dialing in this groomed run turn then do Javelin turns with continuous forward pressure and the hands pointing down the hill diagonally across the skis.

The end result is that the upper body is 100% stable while the lower body just steps from cuff to cuff with knee angulation. Looks like this. No worries if it's not your cup of tea, each to their own style.



Here's the Javelin Turn drill demonstrated by Patrick Deneen. Notice the constant shin pressure until the step to the new ski. You can do it with more exaggerated upper body separation.

We ran thousands of javelin drills in race training. Also one ski drills. These drills helped me learn to carve and dynamically unweight skis. this was super helpful on old 207s lol.

I never really thought these drills would be helpful to bump skiing but now after spend a lot of time in bumps, out west it really is useful. I teaches you how to pressure you edges and make the ski work for you and keep your feet in the proper position.

love watching these drills
 

LiquidFeet

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What type of groomer drills do you all recommend for working on these specific moves? Not to many moguls out there early season.
This video has a ton of mogul drills, some of which are done on groomers. There are also some drills done in the back yard on grass.

Aiko Uemura is the first Japanese woman to win the 2007–08 World Cup in moguls, and also won two gold medals at FIS Freestyle World Ski Championships 2009. She took part in the Winter Olympic Games in 1998, 2002, 2006, 2010, and 2014.
 

Roundturns

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Agree that WC zipper line skiing is not "normal" bump skiing.

I notice a bunch of you ski-talkers talk about pulling your heels back. I always thing of forcing my skis shovels down the downhill side of a mogul. Got this from a Nelson Charmichael video (remember him?) I had a long time ago, back in VHS days.

Is it the same thing ? Does it accomplish the same goal? I mostly ski moguls OK.
The video where he was skiing the Green Rossi’s Watched it a bunch of times.
 

Sanity

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The ski performance in the videos from Sanity's groomer video is very different from what you see in a Tom Gellie video for short turn groomer skiing. You can take either into the bumps and have fun, but the look will be very different between the two. Each style has particular bump shapes it's particularly good at. The key really is a bomb proof short turn with good upper/lower body separation. That will get you through most fields in a direct line.

From another perspective, there isn't that much difference in the turns. I'm on a mogul ski which has a long turning radius, so the ski performance is different which gives a different look. Though the main difference is how long you let the arc build, and thus how much hip angulation comes into play. Tom also talks about steering the ski, but I don't steer the ski except sometimes in transition on the groomed. Certainly in the bumps you need to steer the ski before setting it on edge, because at that moment the tip and tail can be off the snow, so tipping the ski wouldn't cause any turning. By the time the tip is recontacted on the backside it needs to cross the fall line, otherwise in some bump shapes you're in for a world of hurt, and there's no physical mechanism for getting that done other than steering.

 

geepers

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@geepers - In the video, it looks to me like the turn is started with rolling the knees when fully compressed/absorbed. This changes the edges and starts the ski turn. The tip then drags down the backside to offer some speed control and further turns the ski to nearly across the fall line. The slam into a mogul can help start the next turn as well - the tails stop abruptly on the mogul face with the tip unsupported. This spins the ski around, helping with the start of the next turn. This is sort of an emergency move. The knee roll at full absorb, full weight to new outside, and tip pressure is really the way you want to be doing it most of the time. That move also works at really low speeds and can be practiced on groomer as a retraction turn.

One of the great points about Big Picture Skiing is the amount of MA. Extensive clips of skiing, back and forth scrolling on the time line, with commentary on what's apparently going on. Up to the viewer if they accept the points being made however it would be hard to argue without a definitive, evidence based alternative. Both Tom Gellie and Sam Robinson who do that MA have strong backgrounds in skiing - Tom through his instructor roles and Sam through his WC alpine competition.

I'm sure we all focus on slightly different things depending on who we've been getting our ski education from and my more recent perspective has been heavily influenced by watching BPS content.

Feel that what you say is very applicable to courses where the competitors skis do not veer much out of the fall line.

jYAxL5.gif



On the steeper courses pivoting the tails off the upcoming bump looks more like SOP than emergency.

BPS also mention the knee rolling and the re-engagement of the tips as being critical.

From another perspective, there isn't that much difference in the turns. I'm on a mogul ski which has a long turning radius, so the ski performance is different which gives a different look. Though the main difference is how long you let the arc build, and thus how much hip angulation comes into play. Tom also talks about steering the ski, but I don't steer the ski except sometimes in transition on the groomed.

IIRC Tom was on a GS type ski 25m radius for that vid. Not sure how that compares to your mogul ski radius.

Tom's approach to steering the ski is to load the tips and release the tails using the foot/ankle as a class 2 lever. (It's a different mechanism than pulling the feet back however they can be used together.)

Looking at your vid of the groomer turns it appears that there is redirection of the ski between edge sets. Are you defining steering in some more specific sense?

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Certainly in the bumps you need to steer the ski before setting it on edge, because at that moment the tip and tail can be off the snow, so tipping the ski wouldn't cause any turning. By the time the tip is recontacted on the backside it needs to cross the fall line, otherwise in some bump shapes you're in for a world of hurt, and there's no physical mechanism for getting that done other than steering.

Exactly.
 

Seldomski

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I agree there is definitely steering involved for good mogul skiing. My initial comments were mostly responding to the word "pivoting." More of a semantics thing. For intermediate/advanced skier learning moguls, the word 'pivot' can mean actively pivoting the ski by rotating the legs. This takes a lot of effort if you don't do it at exactly the right moment and often involves the upper body. It is not a good way to ski (every) moguls (for the newbies) and I have seen many flail with that sort of approach (me included). Use the ski edges (especially the edges in front/tip of the ski) to turn the ski for you. Then steer/drift the turn by modulating pressure/edge angle.

So I was projecting 'pivot' on a place I have been as a skier in the past several years. Trying to muscle down pivoting the skis by torquing the legs around based on what good mogul skiers look like, and not understanding the cause/effect of the turns they were making. I have made some progress since then, but when I ski moguls I am not thinking about 'pivot' at all. Really its edging, balance, tip pressure, and maintaining constant contact with the snow. Occasionally I do pivot to redirect when the tips/tails are in the air, but it's not an elegant move, it is done at a near stop, and it feels more like a mistake when I need to do that.

My 2c.
 

locknload

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When you say foot pressure I think of left or right. For fore & aft, I think of the skis' position under the body's center of mass. If you pull your skis back behind you, you pull the ski tips down toward the snow. If you push the skis forward, you lighten the tips on the snow. Rule of thumb--if your ski tips are off the snow, you have no control. So--you want the tips engaged in the snow as you begin down each mogul. Pull the skis back under you at the start to get the tips down so you have the opportunity for control. As you progress down the mogul, extending your legs, get ready for the surface transition at the bottom of the bump by pushing your skis forward to lighten the tips and easily ride up the top of the next bump as you flex your legs to absorb. It's actually a smooth movement. Other things that doom mogul skiers are twisting the body around toward the hill and leaning back toward the hill. Bad dog, no biscuit. Look a bump or two ahead to decide where to plant the pole and where you want to go for the next bump. Reach way down the hill so the pole plant brings your upper body along with it.
Bad Dog, no biscuit.
When you say foot pressure I think of left or right. For fore & aft, I think of the skis' position under the body's center of mass. If you pull your skis back behind you, you pull the ski tips down toward the snow. If you push the skis forward, you lighten the tips on the snow. Rule of thumb--if your ski tips are off the snow, you have no control. So--you want the tips engaged in the snow as you begin down each mogul. Pull the skis back under you at the start to get the tips down so you have the opportunity for control. As you progress down the mogul, extending your legs, get ready for the surface transition at the bottom of the bump by pushing your skis forward to lighten the tips and easily ride up the top of the next bump as you flex your legs to absorb. It's actually a smooth movement. Other things that doom mogul skiers are twisting the body around toward the hill and leaning back toward the hill. Bad dog, no biscuit. Look a bump or two ahead to decide where to plant the pole and where you want to go for the next bump. Reach way down the hill so the pole plant brings your upper body along with it.
Bad dog, no biscuit.
This one made me laugh out loud...I don't get nearly enough biscuits in the moguls.
 

Sanity

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Looking at your vid of the groomer turns it appears that there is redirection of the ski between edge sets. Are you defining steering in some more specific sense?
In that video there is redirection during transition while tipping the ski, but once the ski is up on edge there isn't. Though, on the groomed, I would be just as likely not to use any. In moguls I would use redirection in transition, whereas in flatter heavy conditions I wouldn't use any.
 

Sanity

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IIRC Tom was on a GS type ski 25m radius for that vid. Not sure how that compares to your mogul ski radius.

Pretty similar. Do you think he looks different on these different skis? Starting at 1:30.

 

geepers

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Though, on the groomed, I would be just as likely not to use any.

Don't really understand this. Are you saying you get a 25m radius ski to make very short radius turns on a groomer without any redirection?

Pretty similar. Do you think he looks different on these different skis? Starting at 1:30.

The skis used on Caliper Ridge at Silverstar (starting 1:30) are 13m. The skis used on Headwall at Sun Peaks (starting at 1:00) are 23m. Both those runs are steep blacks (although Caliper milds out down the run). The movement patterns are very similar although the tempo is a little quicker for the shorter radius ski.

Not sure I'm getting your point - want to spell it out?
 

Chris V.

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The skis used on Caliper Ridge at Silverstar (starting 1:30) are 13m. The skis used on Headwall at Sun Peaks (starting at 1:00) are 23m. Both those runs are steep blacks (although Caliper milds out down the run). The movement patterns are very similar although the tempo is a little quicker for the shorter radius ski.
But a lot more high C achieved on the 13m skis.
 

Sanity

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Don't really understand this. Are you saying you get a 25m radius ski to make very short radius turns on a groomer without any redirection?

Yes, in the video I put up, much of the turn is without redirection, and you can see how sharp is the turn. Forward pressure does this. I have the maximum forward lean I could get in a boot and the cuff isn't too stiff. On a mogul ski, the tails don't wash out like they do on a carver ski. Also, the skis stay pointed more down the hill, and the turn goes from part of an arc on one ski to part of an arc on another ski which decreases the space required for the turn. Speed control comes more from the tip biting in and less from the skis travelling across the hill. As 3D features grow and as the slope gets steeper, physics requires there to be more redirection for short turns.

The skis used on Caliper Ridge at Silverstar (starting 1:30) are 13m. The skis used on Headwall at Sun Peaks (starting at 1:00) are 23m. Both those runs are steep blacks (although Caliper milds out down the run). The movement patterns are very similar although the tempo is a little quicker for the shorter radius ski.

Not sure I'm getting your point - want to spell it out?

No point. Just interested in your opinion. If you don't see much difference in the turns, then perhaps the ski radius is a minor factor. I would love to see someone doing high edge angle turns on a mogul ski and see what it looks like for them. I found several videos comparing low angle short turns, like mine, with and without mogul skis, but I haven't seen entirely different styles on a mogul ski. Just curious. I would like to know if Tom would look the same to you on a mogul ski. The differences I usually see with short turns is much more energy in the turn. The skier typically rebounds more, catches more air, and gets higher edge angles with the smaller radius ski. Perhaps it depends on what stands out to the observer. Maybe posture has a big effect on perceived style, but wouldn't be affected much by the type of skis.
 

Sanity

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If you can find these, would you post them?

Don't really understand this. Are you saying you get a 25m radius ski to make very short radius turns on a groomer without any redirection?
I was looking back at Blake's video in response to LiquidFeet, and I heard this. Listen at 4:40. I swear this hadn't registered with me before. I was talking from my personal experience, but then it's neat to hear Blake say basically the same thing, though I'm on the 182cm which has a longer radius.


Curious. How come?
I can only guess.
 

Rdputnam515

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Curious. How come?
Usually less side cut on a mogul ski, more edge in contact with snow less ability to wash em out (either on purpose or by accident)

you don’t really want big side cuts on mogul skis, they deflect easier and can be very hooky. Lots of guys still use GS side cuts if they ski a lot of moguls (for an all mountain ski) for this reason

larger turn radius skis sport less side cut
 
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