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More short turns....and symantics

François Pugh

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In my never ending quest to improve my short turns, I was lead to this video.

It is interesting for two reasons: the not just the short turns and their analysis, but also the words used. Seeing what was going on was not all that hard for me, seeing it from Nathan's view, i.e. broadening my mind to a place where both Nathan's description and my understanding of what was going on were both true was the challenge accepted. For example the term "knee angulation" from my hinge joint; it's not what I mean by it, but understanding what he means by it and how he accomplishes it. The knee being a hinge joint, it does not bend sideways, but we can mimic angulation by rotating the legs so it is pointing in the appropriate direction at the correct time so it's bending accomplishes the job.

I also see a lot that has been described with other terms, i.e., counter rotation, flex to release, two flight paths, skis keep turning up hill, driving the knees forward, timing the weight movement to the back, and moving it back forward for new turn edge engagement, etc.

Seems like there is a lot of good stuff to be mined in Nathan George's video series.
 
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Sanity

Getting off the lift
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In my never ending quest to improve my short turns, I was lead to this video.

It is interesting for two reasons: the not just the short turns and their analysis, but also the words used. Seeing what was going on was not all that hard for me, seeing it from Nathan's view, i.e. broadening my mind to a place where both Nathan's description and my understanding of what was going on were both true was the challenge accepted. For example the term "knee angulation" from my hinge joint; it's not what I mean by it, but understanding what he means by it and how he accomplishes it. The knee being a hinge joint, it does not bend sideways, but we can mimic angulation by rotating the legs so it is pointing in the appropriate direction at the correct time so it's bending accomplishes the job.

I also see a lot that has been described with other terms, i.e., counter rotation, flex to release, two flight paths, skis keep turning up hill, driving the knees forward, timing the weight movement to the back, and moving it back forward for new turn edge engagement, etc.

Seems like there is a lot of good stuff to be mined in Nathan George's video series.

Blue jacket's boots could be too stiff and upright creating all those problems.
 

Chris V.

Making fresh tracks
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There's lots of good material from SIA Austria. Possible boot issues aside...I love the analysis in this one. How difficulties making a timely release into the new turn can be attributed to a straight, stiff stance leg, which in turn can be attributed to lack of mobility in the subtalar joint. This is a good lesson for instructors...a demonstration of how starting from an observation of the immediately visible deficiencies in a skier's movements, one needs to drill down to determine what fundamental difficulties with the use of joints and muscles lie behind.
 

Chris V.

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For example the term "knee angulation" from my hinge joint; it's not what I mean by it, but understanding what he means by it and how he accomplishes it. ...I also see a lot that has been described with other terms, i.e., counter rotation, flex to release, two flight paths, skis keep turning up hill, driving the knees forward, timing the weight movement to the back, and moving it back forward for new turn edge engagement, etc.
Instructors, commentators, everyone...just explain your terms carefully, please, not everyone understands them, not everyone uses them the same way. More plain English and less jargon is good. Descriptions of movements with specific joints and muscles is good. Ski school students, in particular, usually don't have a clue what you mean by any language outside their everyday realm of experience, and aren't impressed by your command of jargon. And if your initial explanation doesn't sink in, start over using different words. Or just point to parts of your body!
 

Sherman89

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Instructors, commentators, everyone...just explain your terms carefully, please, not everyone understands them, not everyone uses them the same way. More plain English and less jargon is good. Descriptions of movements with specific joints and muscles is good. Ski school students, in particular, usually don't have a clue what you mean by any language outside their everyday realm of experience, and aren't impressed by your command of jargon. And if your initial explanation doesn't sink in, start over using different words. Or just point to parts of your body!
Well said, target your audience with appropriate language. Beginners and most intermediates will not have a clue what is being said unless it in the language they will understand and is used daily. Show and point is more appropriate than spoken words diarrhea.
 

Henry

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Knee angulation...his diagram is bogus.
1668120977684.png

The skiers are skiing at different angles toward the camera. The left skier is skiing at an angle across the frame. The right skier is skiing straight at the camera. A leg with no knee angulation but skiing at an angle to the camera will appear to have some.

If the left skier really had that much knee angulation, he must have really floppy ligaments. Knees aren't made to bend sideways much. The bit they are able to angulate slightly is needed for shock absorption to the side.

I agree with the description at about the 8 minute mark where the narrator is using eccentric and concentric...but those two words are used in ways that I'd never relate to without his definition, and I'll never use them on snow. Concentric:
1668121602770.png
Eccentric:
1668121579715.png
In weight training the eccentric movement is to release the muscle in a controlled manner, which is what the legs are doing, but it isn't a term I'd use or expect anyone to understand.
Yes to flexing to release the skis to end the turn. Yes to actively and sometimes deeply flexing the inside leg to lighten the inside ski on the snow. No to pushing against the snow...that's a great way to break away the edge's grip. "Extending out" at the beginning of the turn isn't the best description. There is no push to extend. It is more of engaging the edge of the ski in the snow and the legs extend without pressure allow the skis to ski away from the body. Agree about too much bend at the waist of the right skier. The move to the back seat at the end of the turn...I first heard of that back in the early 1970s as jet turns...where the bend is the skis is released much like a bent vaulting pole is released to fling the athlete over the bar, and here the energy in the bend of the skis is released to jet the skier forward. This is accomplished by very briefly pushing the feet forward, then immediately after the jet pull the feet well back so the tips engage the snow to begin the next turn. When skiing this way the feet are moving front & back and side to side, and it almost feels like the feet and the skis are inscribing infinity symbols in the snow as one is skiing down the hill...

At about the 13 minute mark he makes an important point--the skis need to be on their new edges well before the skis are pointed down the fall line. Even earlier, the skis on their new edges is how the new turn is started. This is also termed toppling, where the body is downhill from the skis, the skis are on their new edges, and a person uphill from the skier can see the logo on the bottoms of the skier's skis as the new turn is begun.
 

Atomicman

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Knee angulation...his diagram is bogus.
View attachment 182707
The skiers are skiing at different angles toward the camera. The left skier is skiing at an angle across the frame. The right skier is skiing straight at the camera. A leg with no knee angulation but skiing at an angle to the camera will appear to have some.

If the left skier really had that much knee angulation, he must have really floppy ligaments. Knees aren't made to bend sideways much. The bit they are able to angulate slightly is needed for shock absorption to the side.

I agree with the description at about the 8 minute mark where the narrator is using eccentric and concentric...but those two words are used in ways that I'd never relate to without his definition, and I'll never use them on snow. Concentric: View attachment 182710 Eccentric: View attachment 182709 In weight training the eccentric movement is to release the muscle in a controlled manner, which is what the legs are doing, but it isn't a term I'd use or expect anyone to understand.
Yes to flexing to release the skis to end the turn. Yes to actively and sometimes deeply flexing the inside leg to lighten the inside ski on the snow. No to pushing against the snow...that's a great way to break away the edge's grip. "Extending out" at the beginning of the turn isn't the best description. There is no push to extend. It is more of engaging the edge of the ski in the snow and the legs extend without pressure allow the skis to ski away from the body. Agree about too much bend at the waist of the right skier. The move to the back seat at the end of the turn...I first heard of that back in the early 1970s as jet turns...where the bend is the skis is released much like a bent vaulting pole is released to fling the athlete over the bar, and here the energy in the bend of the skis is released to jet the skier forward. This is accomplished by very briefly pushing the feet forward, then immediately after the jet pull the feet well back so the tips engage the snow to begin the next turn. When skiing this way the feet are moving front & back and side to side, and it almost feels like the feet and the skis are inscribing infinity symbols in the snow as one is skiing down the hill...

At about the 13 minute mark he makes an important point--the skis need to be on their new edges well before the skis are pointed down the fall line. Even earlier, the skis on their new edges is how the new turn is started. This is also termed toppling, where the body is downhill from the skis, the skis are on their new edges, and a person uphill from the skier can see the logo on the bottoms of the skier's skis as the new turn is begun.
I disagree with other aspects of your post, but this "This is also termed toppling, where the body is downhill from the skis" the skis are on their new edges,. this is not my understanding of toppling, this is being upside down, skis above body. Toppling is an action, a particular way of moving to get upside down, not a position relative to the skis.
 

Chris V.

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The skiers are skiing at different angles toward the camera. The left skier is skiing at an angle across the frame. The right skier is skiing straight at the camera. A leg with no knee angulation but skiing at an angle to the camera will appear to have some.
All right, but look at all the video for both skiers. There's a big difference. There's an element lacking in Nathan's skiing. People use different terms for it. Some simply call it foot tipping, but that can be inadequate or misleading. The intent to tip the feet has to be coupled with mobility in the subtalar joints, leading to rotation of the lower legs relative to the feet, leading in turn to the appearance that is called knee angulation. This isn't a sideways knee flexion, which is impossible without seriously injuring yourself, if you did it, it would be your last turn for a long time. Some don't like the term knee angulation, because they think it implies driving the knees. It doesn't have to be that...it can instead be the result of movements initiated at the feet.

Look at the differences in ski performance. Nathan is late in creating big edge angles. He ends up getting an abrupt buildup of ground reaction force, or what may be called a hard edge set. Then he doesn't release progressively, and sort of gets stuck inside the old turn.
I agree with the description at about the 8 minute mark where the narrator is using eccentric and concentric...but those two words are used in ways that I'd never relate to without his definition, and I'll never use them on snow. Concentric: View attachment 182710 Eccentric: View attachment 182709 In weight training the eccentric movement is to release the muscle in a controlled manner, which is what the legs are doing, but it isn't a term I'd use or expect anyone to understand.
Most people would pronounce eccentric differently from how Paul does, LOL.
At about the 13 minute mark he makes an important point--the skis need to be on their new edges well before the skis are pointed down the fall line. Even earlier, the skis on their new edges is how the new turn is started. This is also termed toppling, where the body is downhill from the skis, the skis are on their new edges, and a person uphill from the skier can see the logo on the bottoms of the skier's skis as the new turn is begun.
But...toppling alone only creates early inclination, while knee angulation, or whatever you want to call it, enhances the early edge angles.

I'm coming to realize that Nathan's issue pops up frequently in skiers who gave reached a certain skill level.
 
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François Pugh

Skiing the powder
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The trick is to see how his terms can be interpreted as correct, not to see how they are wrong. By rotating the legs with respect to the upper body the knees can bend in the required direction. That's his "knee angulation". Agreed it is not your knee angulation. If you want to understand his meaning, communication requires two translations: from thoughts to words, and from words to thoughts. If the words make no sense to you, but clearly do make sense to him, then entertain the notion that he is correct, and so are you, and adjust your translation.
 

LiquidFeet

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The trick is to see how his terms can be interpreted as correct, not to see how they are wrong. By rotating the legs with respect to the upper body the knees can bend in the required direction. That's his "knee angulation".
^^This. It's the common understanding of knee angulation.
 

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