Moving up to current gen race skis from vintage Rossignol 9X Course

[dcoral]

I posted a question on the neverending Stockli discussion about replacing my vintage GS race skis and what might be a good Stockli replacement for the solid feel that I get from my current skis when I ski them fast and aggressively, while offering better versatility for skiing slower, smaller radius turns with family. I got some useful advice from Muleski and KingGrump, but at the same time they also they fired some unwarranted snarky comments at me, which could derail the wonderful neverending Stockli thread. So I am starting this new thread to explain my situation in a little more detail. First, the latest reply from Muleski:

Thinkig some of us {yes, me for sure} have derailed this Stöckli tread. Apologize for that.

I’d suggest that IF @dcoral wants a broader discussion, @moderators move recent posts to a different thread. If he wants none of it, then let’s let this go back to his original question of “Which Stöckli for me?”

Obviously his original and subsequent posts raised a LOT of questions for some of us.

Questions that have zero to do with Stöckli and the legion of Stöckli fans on here. And guys like me taking this far away from “What Stöckli?”

Lots of suggestions and observations. I’ll hold off. This is @dcoral’s first series of posts.

BTW, one of my best friends ran Rossi Race, USA and another was a designer/engineer for them..working on race skis at the time your 205cm were built.
That design predates the true shaped ski, and Bode break through.

Around 1990 at the FIS and higher levels, we began to really change GS course sets. Far across the fall line. I was not a fan. REAL race rooms began to react immediately with new designs for the WC guys. The first move was to reduce the waist of GS skis by about 5 or 6mm….down to 61-62mm. The LENGTHs stayed at, for the most part, 210-212cm. I think that was roughly a 32-33M radius. Not that anybody knew or cared.

When the true shaped skis were introduced by Elan a few years later, and we had the Bode breakthrough on his K2 Fours, we saw a sudden change in GS skis. For a couple of years, men on the EC and top domestic FIS levels were experimenting on skis as short as 175cm. Maybe a 15M radius.

Shortly thereafter, FIS introduced a 185cm minimum length. As I had previously mentioned, 188cm was the length for a number of years. Then it got pushed up, and up…..and real race skis got a LOT better. Like the early Ligety Heads…which smoked Rossi {who was in a real hole before and during these years}.

So…my hunch is that the OP’s current GS skis are “somewhat vintage”, and nothing like a current ski. If he insists on the type of “race” GS ski that he can actually buy, I might suggest a 188cm, which is a woman’s ski. And the women fir whom they are designed are probably stronger than the OP. And “pretty solid” with their race technique. Current race technique.

I’m out of this discussion on this thread. If the OP wants advice, elsewhere, I’ll weigh in. He seems to know what he wants.

Might revisit the boot choice, BTW. Considering what he’s talking about for skis.

I made a typo in my post, I have the 201 Rossignol 9X Course GS, not the 205. The sidecut is 95/62/82.

I raced these on the university ski team in GS and Super-G events. And then years later, I raced in the local ski racing clubs & camps at Mammoth. After wife had babies we got so busy with the kids and remodeling the house, I couldn't ski as often in recent years (with only 1 trip per year instead of many trips per year). So I have not had heavy use of these vintage race skis continuously (they would have worn out by now). I fell in love with these skis, as I have "become one with the equipment" with so much time on them, feeling all of the subtleties. They are rock solid stable at high speed, and nothing compares to feeling the G's on Super-G style carved turns on them. I ski fast and aggressive when I want to really have fun.

When I ask about replacement skis to consider, I'm not looking to race again necessarily. But rather, something that will give me that feeling of being on rails with rock solid stability at high speed, just because I enjoy the feeling. (BTW that's why I am happy with my choice of Technica Mach 1 120 boots, if I was going back into racing I would get something a lot more painful to wear).

I'm quickly realizing that there is not just one ski that can give me the versatility I'm looking for. So right now I'm about to purchase 191 Head World Cup Rebels E-GS RD Pro (for the ski days without the kids), and 175 Stöckli Laser AX (family fun & moguls) to add to the 184 Mantra M6 (between trees).

I think the snarky comments from Muleski and KingGrump are unfair. I have old ski equipment that I have put to max use. Having kids delayed the time that I had available to do the research, planning, and ski trips, to get a modern upgrade (until now). What have I done to deserve the condescending comments? When I asked about recommended Stockli models, I had to include my background in racing, otherwise people would be saying that I didn't provide enough info about my preferred skiing style. But since I mentioned it, Muleski and KingGrump assume that I'm a showoff. I'm only mentioning the race background because it helps to inform recommendations.

Also, I welcome any additional thoughts about the mix of 191 Head World Cup Rebels E-GS RD Pro and 175 Stöckli Laser AX to add to the Mantra M6.

 

[Tony Storaro]

Don't get that personal mate, nobody here means no offence. Seriously. This is a wonderful place full of very knowledgeable people who are sometimes a tad too opinionated. Just a little bit.

Just go with this:

"Unless I'm talked out of it or discover something better I think I'm going to buy 191 Head World Cup Rebels E-GS RD Pro (for the ski days without the kids), and 175 Stöckli Laser AX (family fun & moguls)"

You will be happy.


P.S. Ah yes, and please stick around, you will see for yourself what I mean.

 

[motogreg]

you should like the ax's. some like them mounted a little forward, I found 2 clicks up on a demo binding (about 1.5 cm) was pretty nicely centered for me.

 

[ski otter 2]

Your choices look good to me. 191 Pro would be great, like what you want. The only thing you seem to be missing (from just this one post) is a crud/powder ski as an addition.

At some point later on, you might consider actual FIS GS race skis. Didn't see your size, but unless you are larger, the actual men's GS ski (193/30 now? not sure) might still be more like an SG ski for your recreational needs, rather than GS. For the the medium to smaller size guy, and recreational older skiers also, the women's current GS ski is wonderful (188/30) - like your description of your older race skis also. But new and improved.

 

[cantunamunch]

I think the snarky comments from Muleski and KingGrump are unfair. I have old ski equipment that I have put to max use. Having kids delayed the time that I had available to do the research, planning, and ski trips, to get a modern upgrade (until now). What have I done to deserve the condescending comments? When I asked about recommended Stöckli models, I had to include my background in racing, otherwise people would be saying that I didn't provide enough info about my preferred skiing style. But since I mentioned it, Muleski and KingGrump assume that I'm a showoff. I'm only mentioning the race background because it helps to inform recommendations.

To be fair (and I have no skin in this game, I despise condescension as much as you do) it's more about what you haven't done. Forget time spent on research, planning, and ski trips - you haven't internalized how much race gear has evolved since the 9X was on market.

And yes, I think you could be a pretty good match for a current womens FIS ski right now.

 

[cosmoliu]

Thanks for the detailed info at the top of this thread. The Grump man does take some getting used to. He usually camps out at Mammoth for several weeks in the spring. I think you'd like skiing with him.

 

[dcoral]

ski otter 2 said:

For the the medium to smaller size guy, and recreational older skiers also, the women's current GS ski is wonderful (188/30) - like your description of your older race skis also. But new and improved.

I see two models on the Head website in size 188 - the Worldcup Rebels e-GS RD FIS (available in sizes 183, 188, 193) and the Worldcup Rebels e-GS RD - Race Plate WCR 14 (176, 181, 186, 188). Are these the ones you're referring to? Sounds like people recommend this model in 188 is better suited for what I have in mind vs. 191 Head World Cup Rebels e-GS RD Pro? Thoughts on the different characteristics? Also I see this listed as a unisex model, not a women's model. The Head website is only showing one women's model, Worldcup Rebels e-SG RD W - DH Race Plate (202, 207). (I'm male by the way, though I don't believe there is such a thing as M vs. W skis, similar to all tennis racquets being unisex, women just pick the lighter ones).

cantunamunch said:

To be fair (and I have no skin in this game, I despise condescension as much as you do) it's more about what you haven't done. Forget time spent on research, planning, and ski trips - you haven't internalized how much race gear has evolved since the 9X was on market.

I'm generally aware of general equipment evolution, but not the differences in various models on the market right now, that's exactly why I'm here posting on the forum -- to learn what's on the market. I'm just stating my physical/performance/style preferences and I haven't said anything opinionated about ski equipment whatsoever. I'm here to learn and the more recent replies are super helpful compared to the initial replies I got.

 

[ski otter 2]

The first, the FIS group. These three are the three FIS approved lengths, but the 183/30 is a "no", probably: the 188/30 is for most easier and more fun to turn, and more powerful. The 183 is for Juniors/teenagers, and transitional skiers from junior to adult racing.

The 193/30 is the men's. Until recently, the 188/30 was purely the woman's - back when the men's was 193/35. Then the 188/30 became also (though less used) a transitional spec for men, mostly U18 (18 year olds and such), transitioning to the adult game.

One advantage of FIS skis is that they are often available when racers get rid of them, from coaches, racers and ebay. Their condition is often better than new, in that they have been prepped, tuned beyond what a normal tune shop would do, and are a real treat to ski "as is." Racers mostly take care of their skis incredibly, for speed's sake; and for performance sake.

The Pro 191 would also be a great choice. Any Head Pro 185 and longer would be, for the purpose you gave above. Very stable. Very GS race ski like. Just rock solid on edge in big fast turns. A revelation, compared to your old skis.

But still, the FIS 188 and longer would be noticeably more rock solid, more stable at speed, more responsive - by more than a touch, I'd have to guess; both things true (for the Pros and the FIS GS) IF you are used to race skis. (The Pro 185 of a few years back was the good one I skied more recently.)

 

[Tony Storaro]

ski otter 2 said:


I see two models on the Head website in size 188 - the Worldcup Rebels e-GS RD FIS (available in sizes 183, 188, 193) and the Worldcup Rebels e-GS RD - Race Plate WCR 14 (176, 181, 186, 188). Are these the ones you're referring to? Sounds like people recommend this model in 188 is better suited for what I have in mind vs. 191 Head World Cup Rebels e-GS RD Pro?

The ones you have in mind are the Masters version. Less stiff than the full blown FIS version but easier to handle. I have them in 189/27. Bought them after hearing some raving reviews from people I trust.
More human version, more approachable.

 

[dcoral]

Wow great info ski otter and Tony ! I am excited, this is exactly the info I was looking for. I will pick either from the Masters or FIS model suggested.

 

[François Pugh]

If you are a sock-puppet trolling to pull me in, excellent job; I can't resist the bait. As a reward, I'm taking the bait.

If not, then I can certainly relate to your situation. Although I have no official racing experience I am a reformed speed freak, who spent decades perfecting what I believe (and very few others believe) were (and are) locked in pure carved turns in my quest for higher speeds on my now-antique Kastle SGs. I still take them out from time to time, but they have lost some of their camber and stiffness (an extra oscilation or two here and there) and their oxidized bases are now slow. I made the switch to modern shaped skis twenty years too late, back in the early 2000s. I had no problem making the switch, maybe because I skipped the traditional training on the old-school skis. The antiques will still lock into a smooth long radius turn, where the modern skis will tear along.

What you have to realize is in the old days very few people carved locked-in arc-2-arc turns, most people went through formal training and became very adept at making turns that were not locked-in; the standard was to pivot to a steering angle on a flat ski and then semi-engage the edge (sometimes two). You may be in the small percentage that did carve arc-2-arc turns. Next to nobody will believe you if you tell them you did. Don't take it personally.

I believe I know the feeling of a solid locked in long radius carved turn you seek. IMHO, you won't find it without a ski that has a long sidecut radius.

What will come closest to that feeling? Obviously a ski designed for high speeds with the most weight and the longest sidecut radius, but all things considered, you probably would be much happier NOT getting a DH racing ski. If you did so you would be missing out on a lot.

A modern GS ski would be my recommendation for what you want. It will give you that on rails feeling in a hard turn up to a certain speed and turn radius.

However, even a modern GS ski would leave you missing out on a pile of fun, the fun you will have on a 13-m SL ski, when you eventually get one.

As to stability at speed, there are two factors you need to think about separately. Vibration resisting stability in a modern top shelf is great; 35 years ago even a 200 cm gs ski needed more stability, now even a 165 cm SL ski is stable enough at speed as far as damping vibrations is concerned. However, the side-cut shape of the ski will try and interact with every RANDOM little deviation from pure flat surface. If you have your skis tipped up on edge it's not a problem; they will try to turn you according to which edge your on. If you tip them up far enough on edge they will carve a clean turn. If you try to ski with skis flat to the surface, going straight down the headwall to build speed for example, they will not know whether to turn left or right and just wobble to and fro, the faster you go the more they will wobble.

If you tip the skis on edge enough and go fast enough they will try to turn harder than the physics and tipping angle allow, and they will break out of a pure carve - giving that tearing feeling instead of a smooth on-rails feeling. The point at which that happens depends - mostly on side-cut radius.

As to boots, I keep hearing ravings on modern boots have better lateral stiffness, blah, blah blah. I guess it depends on what your old boots were. My antique boots were Koflach Comp 911, with custom kork footeds, and double stacked VIP custom foam liners. Modern boots have nothing on them performance-wise. Once I figured out how to finish the fitting job, they were comfy and fit extremely close, like a second skin. Still my favourite performing ski boot. Terribly cold though.

 

[mdf]

You can't really size FIS skis like ordinary consumer skis. The lengths are category indicators, which matter more than the actual difference in physical length.

 

[dcoral]

Good explanation, thanks François.

It feels like I am getting a lot of replies with as if I have skis with zero sidecut. This was true when I had the Rossignol Equipe Kevlar 4S which I had prior to the 9X - that one was pretty straight. The Rossignol 9X Course however has a sidecut of 95/62/82 which is roughly equivalent to a sidecut on today's Super-G skis (when I look at the Super-G ski sidecut specs on the Head website). So in order to survive (at high speed) this long, I have to know already how to use the edges, at least a little bit. I am guessing that this reaction is because today's GS skis have a lot more sidecut.. a little bit vs. a lot.

 

[Tony Storaro]

The Rossignol 9X Course however has a sidecut of 95/62/82 which is roughly equivalent to a sidecut on today's Super-G skis

And that is exactly the reason you have been suggested by some people to go for a modern ski that is not so dramatically different from your old ski that it would necessitate a steep learning curve to go through and at the same time would be waaaay better than your old ski.

 

[dcoral]

And that is exactly the reason you have been suggested by some people to go for a modern ski that is not so dramatically different from your old ski that it would necessitate a steep learning curve to go through and at the same time would be waaaay better than your old ski.

I see, now it is starting to make sense.

Now I just need to decide on Head Masters vs. FIS, and will buy it as soon as I have that selection made. I just ordered the 175 Laser AX (and one for my wife in 156) for the bunny slopes with the kids.

 

[trailtrimmer]

I'll toss this into the fray as well.

2021 Atomic Redster G9 RS GS Skis

Ultra fast and powerful – Atomic Redster G9 RS Ski is a Redster for Giant Slalom racing at all levels.

the-raceplace.com

Unless you have year heart set on head and will actually be racing. If it's just for go fast grins when the slopes are barren, any masters or 30M ski would be a hoot. Even one thats had a season of racing on it, and it will cost 60% less.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Sad as it sounds, this question has been asked numerous times for the last 10 years or so and a few members have been given the same advise again and again, so occasionally they get a little testy when the reposts don't gettoo.

Harsh or not it is likely the best honest advise.

Also read @ScotsSkier posts on equipment performance, likely the most unbiased and applies to all review you can get, and keep an eye out for his used equipment sales.

 

[dcoral]

Sad as it sounds, this question has been asked numerous times for the last 10 years or so and a few members have been given the same advise again and again, so occasionally they get a little testy when the reposts don't gettoo.

With so many innovations in ski design, who knows if someday there will be a fun all-around ski that can perform decent at GS (the Stockli AX is making progress in that direction, from what I am reading in the reviews). In a few years, maybe there will be a new invention in design that will take it a step further. That's why we should be able to ask the question without being ridiculed. I have always focused on actual skiing and rarely pay attention to latest manufacturing trends, in fact out of all these years I think this is my first time posting on a ski forum. It would be best to just give the equipment advice without all the baggage IMO.

 

[Philpug]

I have bee following this thread so I want to comment on this point.

With so many innovations in ski design, who knows if someday there will be a fun all-around ski that can perform decent at GS (the Stöckli AX comes close, from what I am reading in the reviews).

I think you will find a limit with the AX as the speeds that you might be expecting. It is a very versatile and nice ski but that versatility comes at the cost of top end performance. If you are looking for speed in the upper 70mm range, I think there are better options bit if you are looking for versatility with a premium feel, few better.

 

[dcoral]

I have bee following this thread so I want to comment on this point.

I think you will find a limit with the AX as the speeds that you might be expecting. It is a very versatile and nice ski but that versatility comes at the cost of top end performance. If you are looking for speed in the upper 70mm range, I think there are better options bit if you are looking for versatility with a premium feel, few better.

Indeed.

I'm excited now about a dedicated GS Master/FIS ski (on my own) + Stockli AX (with family).