Moving up to current gen race skis from vintage Rossignol 9X Course

[ScotsSkier]

Ok, like Francois, I will reluctantly take the bait. First, i would suggest you stop trying to compare what you are looking for to your 9X If you want to experience the full capability of a modern GS ski - which is a whole lot more than anything the 9X can possibly deliver. And also, which is probably also going to upset your sensitivities, to take advantage of that, you need to get some current coaching. No offense but as a high level masters coach, coaching 2 top programs, I get lots of athletes with similar background to yours and it takes a lot of work to help them update their technique to take advantage of current equipment. In the early stages they all want to keep skiing with their feet locked together and lots of inner ski lifting and upper body rotation, just like they did 20+ years ago. And then they think well yes these new skis are better but not a hiuge difference. And they remain uncompetitive And slow. And yes, I know you are not intending to race at this stage but, trust me, you will have a lot more fun and be able to ski faster more safely with some good coaching. Or you could do what I see so many people doing on the hill when I see them on the latest $1500 cult ski and skiing with their feet locked together like it was still the 70s. I smack my head and wonder why they bothered when, since they are not skiing the ski the way it was designed and taking advantage of their investment they could have saved themselves $1000 and still got the same performance.

ok having said that, what ski should you get? WeLL, as has been mentioned, the 188/30 FIS ski is a great ski and it can still be skied quite effectively old school. I would not personally recommend the 191 head unless you are determined just to keep skiing the same as you did 20 years ago. In fact I am going to go against what I regularly suggest here and suggest what you should consider is something like the 186/88 25/26m head GS skis or nordica 188 25/26 m GS ski, or even the 186 atomic g9RS althoug( it is a little wider in the waist. And you need have zero worries that any of these will have any issues at any speed you are capable of. And once you realize how these should be skied you will have more fun, pull higher speeds and bigger angles than you would ever have believed were possible.

Why this you say? Well go back to my earlier advice, this will help you transition better to modern technique and really enjoy the ski With a bit more forgiveness at this stage than the 188/30. And get some good coaching from a race coach.

and I can also help you save some money to fund that coaching. Reach out to @DocGKR who has a virtually new 186/26 head GS at a steal price. Or if you want a 188/30 FIS I have several different pairs at various price points.

so, park your ego at the door and take advantage of some of the advice here from people such as muleski and king grump, and yes myself who have a wealth of experience in this area

or just keep skiing like it was the 90 s if that is what you want

 

[dcoral]

Great advice ScotsSkier! Now that you mention it, I'll look into getting some race coaching to update my technique for the newer skis. It sounds like a bunch of people recommend the 188/30 FIS so I will look at that one closely. Although I also like the 191. When you say " I would not personally recommend the 191 head unless you are determined just to keep skiing the same as you did 20 years ago" does this also imply that pro racers ski this one totally differently, more akin to how they used to decades ago? Or do the racers apply modern techniques but the 191 might be too forgiving and allow me to retain old-school habits from 20 years ago instead of forcing me to update and benefit from new technique?

 

[silverback]

I’ll bite.
A couple questions come to mind.
1. It seems you want to buy new. Do you know where to go to get the new skis set up? It really matters. Expect to spend $125 or so.
2. do you have tools to maintain them? It matters.
3. Can you join a masters program? Even for a couple weeks, the coaching can be transformational. It is more expensive but camps and ski better weeks can help too.

modern skis, combined with some technique and fitness, are powerful fun.

 

[DocGKR]

"Pro" (ie. WC) ski racers do not use 68mm waist 191cm skis for GS like the "Head World Cup Rebels E-GS RD Pro" you mentioned.

For GS, the FIS rules mandate WC skiers use a 65mm wide 193/30m if a male or the 188/30 if a female WC athlete: https://assets.fis-ski.com/image/up...cations_for_Alpine_Competiton_Equipment_1.pdf

Most of the amateur (ex. Masters) GS racers I know use a 188/30m FIS ski or something in the 185/25-27m range for GS.

I too raced straight skis back in the day, then took a 35+ year break from racing. Best thing I ever did was get quality coaching on modern ski technique. It makes a significant difference--particularly when learning to effectively drive a modern 30m GS ski...

 

[ScotsSkier]

Great advice ScotsSkier! Now that you mention it, I'll look into getting some race coaching to update my technique for the newer skis. It sounds like a bunch of people recommend the 188/30 FIS so I will look at that one closely. Although I also like the 191. When you say " I would not personally recommend the 191 head unless you are determined just to keep skiing the same as you did 20 years ago" does this also imply that pro racers ski this one totally differently, more akin to how they used to decades ago? Or do the racers apply modern techniques but the 191 might be too forgiving and allow me to retain old-school habits from 20 years ago instead of forcing me to update and benefit from new technique?

neither. Despite the name this is not a ski used by the pros. They would be on the FIS ski. note also that this is the longest length in this range of masters skis. Yes it can be skied with modern technique and there may be a few masters racers that go for it but almost all masters racers that want to ski this big a ski will be on the FIS ski. Also note that these head masters skis are a 68 mm waist rather than 65/66 like the FIS skis so are a bit slower edge to edge. Some of my athletes that were on the atomic masters ski noticed this difference and switched back to the FIS ski.

it may we’ll be that some buyers are in a similar position as yourself, using a 20+ year old perspective. This is quite possible as there is also a significant percentage of masters racers who are not in a train program and do not have coaching input to help them with ski selection

 

[dcoral]

I’ll bite.
A couple questions come to mind.
1. It seems you want to buy new. Do you know where to go to get the new skis set up? It really matters. Expect to spend $125 or so.
2. do you have tools to maintain them? It matters.
3. Can you join a masters program? Even for a couple weeks, the coaching can be transformational. It is more expensive but camps and ski better weeks can help too.

modern skis, combined with some technique and fitness, are powerful fun.

1. Yes, I found a shop in mind (reasonable drive 2 hours from me), where they sell Stockli and Rossignol Masters/FIS skis and know how to race tune.
2. I don't have ski specific tools, other than basic wax and edge tools, as I always take it to a shop.
3. Yes I did GS race clinics at Mammoth before, and I think you guys talked me into doing it again soon!

 

[dcoral]

neither. Despite the name this is not a ski used by the pros. They would be on the FIS ski. note also that this is the longest length in this range of masters skis. Yes it can be skied with modern technique and there may be a few masters racers that go for it but almost all masters racers that want to ski this big a ski will be on the FIS ski. Also note that these head masters skis are a 68 mm waist rather than 65/66 like the FIS skis so are a bit slower edge to edge. Some of my athletes that were on the atomic masters ski noticed this difference and switched back to the FIS ski.

it may we’ll be that some buyers are in a similar position as yourself, using a 20+ year old perspective. This is quite possible as there is also a significant percentage of masters racers who are not in a train program and do not have coaching input to help them with ski selection

I see, thanks! Since " FIS rules mandate WC skiers use a 65mm wide 193/30m if a male" I did a search on the Head website for 193 size, and only one model came up -- what do you think about World Cup Rebels e-GS RD FIS 193? Since I'm already skiing 201 all the time (albeit lesser sidecut), I think I should be able to adapt and have fun with 193 if I do some coaching for newer technique? I'm the type that likes a challenge, not just something already within comfort.

 

[Tony Storaro]

what do you think about World Cup Rebels e-GS RD FIS 193?

These are going to be a handful methinks. You will have to be awake.

But see here:

Sold - Head 186/25m & 188/30m GS skis

These Head GS skis are perfect for the Masters Racer who desires a balanced set of skis for different course sets or for developing their skills. First is a Head Worldcup Rebels i.GS RD Pro (186cm/65mm/25m); next is a Head Worldcup Rebels womens FIS GS (188cm/65mm/30m). Both were purchased in...

www.skitalk.com

In your case the 188/30 might be exactly what the doctor prescribed (pun intended).

The added advantage to the obvious good price is that if @DocGKR says they are 0.5/3, they are 0.5/3 because sometimes they come out of the factory with..shall we say...not exactly the stated tune which will send you to the shop for base grind and send you back a certain amount of money.

 

[DocGKR]

A 100mm last Technica Mach 1 120 is likely not going to be enough boot to fully control a 193/30 FIS ski. Something like the recreational race 96mm last Technica Firebird R 140 or better yet a full race boot like the 93mm last Technica Firebird WC 130 or 150 is what is needed to effectively drive a 30m FIS GS ski. You also need a lot of empty hill to safely run a 30m GS ski at speed....

 

[François Pugh]

......... they all want to keep skiing with their feet locked together and lots of inner ski lifting and upper body rotation, just like they did 20+ years ago.

This is how most people skied in the old days if they had any training. Unless people were criticizing you back in the day for having your feet too far apart and not using "body english", it's probably how you skied too. That's the assumption being made.

The problem with the FIS skis for 99.99% of the skiers on the hill is they were designed to only work well for the speeds and turn sizes you see on the course. Unless you turn with what is being referred to here as the old (non-carving) technique, you will have to lift one ski off the snow, and angulate like a pretzel to get them to carve (only one ski at a time) cleanly at slow speeds. To get the FIS GS ski to work properly on a public ski hill, most of the time you will have to be skiing at what most here would call reckless speeds. Racing speeds outside of closed racing courses is frowned upon by most posters here, just like most cops would throw you in jail for doing 150 mph on a public roadway.

It's easier to learn stuff at slower speeds. That's why folks are recommending skis that will more easily bend into a reasonably tight turn at reasonable speeds and tipping angles, and stating that if you get a full-on stiff racing ski you won't learn the "new" technique.

If you are really serious about leaning good technique (that works on old skis too, just at much higher speeds and longer radius turns), get a one-step down SL ski. Skiing at SG speeds might be more fun for you though, and if you know you will, do yourself a favour and don't do it on a slalom ski - GS ski as a minimum.

 

[Primoz]

I agree with @François Pugh about speed that these skis need, but honestly I don't really care about "what other people consider this speed for". Personally I really enjoy skiing SG skis, and if there's too much people, I switch to GS. When there's enough people, that I can't properly ski GS skis, then I rather go xc skiing or ski touring
Thing is, real race GS skis require speed around 80km/h if you want to ski them properly. There's very little chance to ski them slower, but if you want to carve, minimum of minimum is around 60km/h. There's simply no way to do it slower. It's too hard ski and too much of a ski, that anyone can bend it properly at 30km/h. It just doesn't go. SG skis just add another 15-20km/h to that.
Now if you feel comfortable at such speed, and have option to ski at such speed, and have technique to ski that, I would say go for it. As I wrote, for me personally nothing beats feeling of going down on SG or GS ski. But, and I don't think anything bad with this, if someone has never been skiing today's race skis (with today I mean any race ski in last 15 or 20 years), I'm not really sure proper GS skis are way to go. Well honestly I am sure, but I just wrote it nicely, as I have feeling if I write it like I mean, someone won't be too happy with it. But hell... as I have never been PC, and I have no intention to start being now, I will still write my opinion about this. In my mind, if anyone needs to ask if race ski is proper ski for him/her, then answer is no it's not. When proper race ski is right ski for you, you won't be asking on forum if ski is right for you. You know it good enough yourself.

 

[Tony Storaro]

In my mind, if anyone needs to ask if race ski is proper ski for him/her, then answer is no it's not. When proper race ski is right ski for you, you won't be asking on forum if ski is right for you. You know it good enough yourself.

Totally agree with everything you said, but the OP never said he wanted a race ski. He said he wanted GS-ish ski with which he could have some higher speed fun when the kids aren't around.
He never said he wanted to race.
Hence the suggestions for either women GS FIS or Masters GS ski.

 

[DocGKR]

As noted above, any of the 65mm wide true GS skis, be they 30m FIS or 25-27m Masters/Juniors are going to need good technique and higher speeds to allow them to bend and carve correctly.

It is not until one goes to a 68+mm wide recreational sport carving "GS" ski with around a 18-21m radius do the skis become more approachable at lower speeds....

 

[bbbradley]

it may we’ll be that some buyers are in a similar position as yourself, using a 20+ year old perspective. This is quite possible as there is also a significant percentage of masters racers who are not in a train program and do not have coaching input to help them with ski selection

@ScotsSkier As one with 188/30m FIS GS skis, I'd love guidance on sources for technique tips. I plan to get some coaching this season, but in the meantime, any online sources, pics, or videos you can point to for pre-season guidance? I've been reading through this: http://www.effectiveskiing.com/wiki/carving-blog/The_techniques_of_the_Giant_Slalom_turn Though more insights are better.

 

[Philpug]

If the OP has been skiing (and enjoying a 201) he is probably pretty good. I think once he is shown a modern technique and the lightbulb goes off (and starts using both feet), he will be fine.

 

[ScotsSkier]

A 100mm last Technica Mach 1 120 is likely not going to be enough boot to fully control a 193/30 FIS ski. Something like the recreational race 96mm last Technica Firebird R 140 or better yet a full race boot like the 93mm last Technica Firebird WC 130 or 150 is what is needed to effectively drive a 30m FIS GS ski. You also need a lot of empty hill to safely run a 30m GS ski at speed....

Bingo! This.....

I agree with @François Pugh about speed that these skis need, but honestly I don't really care about "what other people consider this speed for". Personally I really enjoy skiing SG skis, and if there's too much people, I switch to GS. When there's enough people, that I can't properly ski GS skis, then I rather go xc skiing or ski touring
Thing is, real race GS skis require speed around 80km/h if you want to ski them properly. There's very little chance to ski them slower, but if you want to carve, minimum of minimum is around 60km/h. There's simply no way to do it slower. It's too hard ski and too much of a ski, that anyone can bend it properly at 30km/h. It just doesn't go. SG skis just add another 15-20km/h to that.
Now if you feel comfortable at such speed, and have option to ski at such speed, and have technique to ski that, I would say go for it. As I wrote, for me personally nothing beats feeling of going down on SG or GS ski. But, and I don't think anything bad with this, if someone has never been skiing today's race skis (with today I mean any race ski in last 15 or 20 years), I'm not really sure proper GS skis are way to go. Well honestly I am sure, but I just wrote it nicely, as I have feeling if I write it like I mean, someone won't be too happy with it. But hell... as I have never been PC, and I have no intention to start being now, I will still write my opinion about this. In my mind, if anyone needs to ask if race ski is proper ski for him/her, then answer is no it's not. When proper race ski is right ski for you, you won't be asking on forum if ski is right for you. You know it good enough yourself.

and this....

Or alternatively, just go ahead and buy the 193/30 GS as you seem determined to do and knock yourself out skiing it old school.... (preferably not literally).

And in the age old axiom that always turns out true ......When all else fails, do what your coach told you to do in the first place.....

 

[DocGKR]

bbradley--have you read Lisa Densmore Ballard's 2016 book "Ski Faster"? Decent intro to Masters racing.

​

 

[ScotsSkier]

@ScotsSkier As one with 188/30m FIS GS skis, I'd love guidance on sources for technique tips. I plan to get some coaching this season, but in the meantime, any online sources, pics, or videos you can point to for pre-season guidance? I've been reading through this: http://www.effectiveskiing.com/wiki/carving-blog/The_techniques_of_the_Giant_Slalom_turn Though more insights are better.

@bbradley

Bill. one of the gold standards is still Ultimate skiing by Ron Lemaster. Always some nuggets in there. One of the things I find as a Masters coach is that there is no one cookie cutter approach. With U athletes, they typically are all relatively homogeneous and there is a lot more similarity in coaching techniques. With Masters I can have everything from national (and world) champions to never-ever in my programs. That in itself is a challenge, but then also add in an age range from 20s to 80s and varying degrees of fitness, disabilities and old injuries and it becomes essential to individualize for each athlete. And also some of my advice may contradict conventional theory as it is designed to help fast-track and overcome other issues. That is why I personally find Masters coaching way more intellectually challenging - and rewarding - than coaching kids. (Contrary to the views and misunderstanding of some very famous coaches when I took my L300 clinic!)

Ok with that as background, for you, with a strong race background and having seen some of your videos you obviously have a lot of strong basics, it is more a case of fine tuning some of them and adapting some of the basics to match you. You are on the right track in looking at some of the literature but the key is also to filter it, take some learnings from all of them and see which parts work for you. You have enough background and experience to be able to feel what works and what doesn't when experimenting in free-skiing and this will allow you to maximize the benefit of time with your coach when they can observe and talk through with you what additional changes to make.

Without contradicting the above about individual guidance there are some general principles that will help you get max speed out of the 188/30s in gates

1. Take a higher line across the hill, dont run too straight at the gate
2. Have your turn basically finished at the gate and be reducing pressure and starting your transition and move to the new ski as you come past it. I like to see a quick move to the new ski although, depending on the set, you may need to delay pressuring it but when you hit your mark you are already on the new ski and just need to apply the pressure.
3. Keep your upper body going downhill with strong counter
4. Make sure you have enough separation of the skis to let them work, at least hip-width
5. Give yourself room at the gate - dont focus on hitting it!!!
6. Over pressuring past the apex of the turn is like braking coming out of a corner - I like to think of the pressure distribution curve looking similar to the turn shape. The biggest issue i see is athletes hanging on to the old outside ski way too long past the gate - it feels really good because you are fighting gravity - but it is really slow because you are fighting gravity!! And also because they are still on the old ski, when they are at the pint where they should be pressuring the new ski they still have to get off the old ski which leaves them getting later and later at the gate with the inevitable result

A much as possible you are trying to maximize the speed the ski can generate when you load it up in the top half of the turn and well ahead of the gate. Also something to consider since you are one of the younger age groups and the course will be more cut up for you than for old farts like me in class 9, is that sometimes it can be worthwhile to sub optimize the line at the gate, perhaps pinch it more than you should to get some cleaner snow that allows you to move to the new ski quicker rather than getting bounced around in the rut.

Again, I stress there are general principles (before some of the armchair MA coaches start to critique!) but they are a good starting point that works and then you can vary to suit your style and abilities. As my athletes will tell you, I will also brake my own rules! But this is part of adapting basics to what makes me faster.

 

[DocGKR]

Awesome post!

 

[dcoral]

A 100mm last Technica Mach 1 120 is likely not going to be enough boot to fully control a 193/30 FIS ski. Something like the recreational race 96mm last Technica Firebird R 140 or better yet a full race boot like the 93mm last Technica Firebird WC 130 or 150 is what is needed to effectively drive a 30m FIS GS ski. You also need a lot of empty hill to safely run a 30m GS ski at speed....

The boots will be my next equipment upgrade. When I bought the Technica 120, about 3 years ago it's the first time with non-race boots. They are almost "too comfortable" despite being smaller than my foot size, which makes me nervous that they have too much padding volume that takes away some energy. Before that I had Nordica Dobermann race with custom boot fitting molding at a very reputable boot fitter, but I hated the Dobermann. I think it's because I have wide feet and Dobermann is better for narrow feet. And prior to that I had Salomon race boots purchased by the college race team, which I absolutely loved and kept for many years til they wore out. Yes I need to look into this..