Moving up to current gen race skis from vintage Rossignol 9X Course

[Tony Storaro]

You guys are acting like he's prepping for the world cup when the GS boards will spend more time collecting dust while he chases kiddos down the hill on his Stöcklis.

No no, I just meant he can easily change 0,5 to 1. The other way around-not so much.

 

[Seldomski]

Remember, he hasn't been on skis in like 20 years and has a family. He's got a lot of re-learning to do and won't be racing every other weekend. You guys are acting like he's prepping for the world cup when the GS boards will spend more time collecting dust while he chases kiddos down the hill on his Stöcklis.

Well he mentioned he has been skiing annually but only a few days a year since he raced in college. We were told not to assume he's inflating his ability since initially he was met with some pretty strong skepticism in the stockli thread, which he felt was undeserved.

I can tell by watching the women's WC race on Saturday that I have no business being on a ski remotely like a women's FIS GS, much less the men's FIS that he is buying. LOL. But that's just me.

 

[trailtrimmer]

No no, I just meant he can easily change 0,5 to 1. The other way around-not so much.

Totally get it. From a time/money standpoint, that makes complete sense. I'm just coming from the other side looking for a easier transition since flinging dollars around doesn't seem to be an issue. A $70 re-grind isn't going to kill the guy who's willing to drop $1400 on new GS skis for limited use.

 

[James]

We were told not to assume he's inflating his ability since initially he was met with some pretty strong skepticism in the Stöckli thread, which he felt was undeserved.

Perhaps he’s Michael von Grunigen. The skepticism was in statements about the old skis vs new. Too many have been there, done that, but 20 years ago. If one skis 5days/year, these learnings about the new could take 5 years. Ten if you’re really stubborn. That’s why no one recommended the ski he bought. But if you couple it with something else, there’s a chance.

Straight skis, and early shaped race skis, are better at going straight. That’s about it. Well, making furniture. Since almost no one just goes straight, this isn’t all that relevant. The issue is, on the old you got used to this “stability”. But there’s more stability in a carve. It’s also much more fun.
We all long ago adjusted to short skis with sidecut “swimming” going straight. It’s a non issue now 99.5% if the time.

A 188/30 consumer race ski isn’t some thing used on the world cup. I know Stockli used to blather it was. Ok, I feel sorry for the athletes that get the same ski as Joe Schmoe. I’m pretty confident that Marco Odermatt isn’t on the same thing we could buy in a store.
A 188/30 is totally skiable. They do make slalom skis seem short and fat though.

 

[Quandary]

Unless you are actually club or masters racing I don't see any point in a recreational skier buying a WC GS ski. There is perhaps 30 to 45 minutes on weekday mornings right after the lifts open that you could safely use them in the manner for which they were designed. Any other time you are a hazard on the mountain. Particularly someone who hasn't done this much for the last 20 years. It seems to me that you can have a lot more fun free skiing on a ski that was designed for that purpose. But that's just me.

 

[KingGrump]

We were told not to assume he's inflating his ability since initially he was met with some pretty strong skepticism in the Stöckli thread, which he felt was undeserved.

The leading cause of injury to old men is them thinking they are still young men. - Author unknown.
20 years is a long time. Even to an old fart like me.

Contrary to what many on this forum like to believe. Degradation of technical competence due to desuetude is real. Couple that with Father Time with his favorite baseball bat, the results often aren't pretty.

IMO, all the focus on top speed is totally misplaced. Personally, I wouldn't ski anywhere near my top speed unless the trail is set up properly with B-net. I am pretty sure most skiers that go splat on a tree adjacent to a blue cruiser weren't tree skiing until the last few moments.

 

[François Pugh]

Unless you are actually club or masters racing I don't see any point in a recreational skier buying a WC GS ski. There is perhaps 30 to 45 minutes on weekday mornings right after the lifts open that you could safely use them in the manner for which they were designed. Any other time you are a hazard on the mountain. Particularly someone who hasn't done this much for the last 20 years. It seems to me that you can have a lot more fun free skiing on a ski that was designed for that purpose. But that's just me.

I will disagree with (probably) most posters here. If a recreational skier skis at over 55 mph on the slopes, a WC GS ski makes perfect sense. Whether or not he should be skiing that fast outside of a closed race course is a different question. One the person asking for advice didn't ask.

 

[dcoral]

Not a 20 year gap, but rather I decided to keep my 201 Rossignols for a long time because I just became "one with them" (proprioception), got used to the aggressive skiing style needed, and love the way they feel. Whenever I tried (non-race) demo skis, just didn't like them, so I kept what I had.

The tips on ski tune edge bevel is super helpful. Maybe first I will try with the factory setup. I see valid points for a variety of parameters.

I am thinking about Masters race camp in order to learn proper technique on the newer GS skis, skills that I can use for recreational skiing, or if I do well in camp, maybe have some fun with racing again. I don't know how well I'm going to do after not being in a formal race program for a long time. But the initial purpose is to see what new habits I need to learn to get the most fun out the newer GS skis.

GS race speeds are typically around 15 - 20 m/s (33 - 44 mph) according to the table below. There are plenty of places on the mountain where I can go 30 - 40mph, and it's easy to see in the wide open areas whether there are people around. And I only go this fast for shorter sections, not all the way down the mountain. There are times I go 50+ mph on occasion and I want the skis to be able to perform very stable at those speeds too. But not all the time.

Diagram is from

Characterization of Course and Terrain and Their Effect on Skier Speed in World Cup Alpine Ski Racing

World Cup (WC) alpine ski racing consists of four main competition disciplines (slalom, giant slalom, super-G and downhill), each with specific course and terrain characteristics. The International Ski Federation (FIS) has regulated course length, altitude ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[DocGKR]

"Maybe first I will try with the factory setup."

You DON'T want to do this--much like a WC plug boot, FIS race skis almost always MUST be tuned to proper base and edge angles prior to skiing.

 

[dcoral]

"Maybe first I will try with the factory setup."

You DON'T want to do this--much like a WC plug boot, FIS race skis almost always MUST be tuned to proper base and edge angles prior to skiing.

Thanks, good advice and so I will get the proper tune angle first.

 

[François Pugh]

I would see what bevels are on there first, before trying them.
Being the curious fellow that I am, I have skied 0:3. It skied a bit like the ski was railed. I would not recommend it.
If it's between 0.5:5 and 1:1 then no harm in trying (before you reset it to 0.5:3 ).

 

[Muleski]

@dcoral, I realize that you feel that I was just horrible to you with my initial thoughts. As I have said before, I apologize. Not my intent.

However, it’s very interesting to review all of your posts, as they each build on the previous one to create a bit of a different picture. You are, I guess, quite a bit more experienced that I had read into your posts.

So….the Head’s that you are buying are essentially an average shape of the dozens and dozens of different designs used by “comp’d” Head athletes at the FIS ages and older. The skis used on the WC, the various Continental Cups {such as NorAm and EC}, by the top domestic NCAA athletes, and the top U19 FIS guys.

The model sold at retail, which is also sold to young FIS racers at the big clubs and ski academies….is that ski. The Head engineers came up with what works well for the most. They are good. It works.

A guy like Ligety last year probably had 40-50 pairs of skis, ranging in length from 195cm to perhaps 197cm, maybe 198cm, and many different sidecuts. And layups. Among all of that, he and his tech {Alex Martin} probably settled on a dozen of so pairs to travel with, and race/train on.

That is frankly the work going on, on the WC with the next {some would say the actual first} GS coming in two months.

So….what you are buying is what we {all of SkiTalk} call a “FIS ski,” not to be confused by what you’ll see described as a “real deal” ski: WC stock, EC stock, team stock. All of those have differing layups. And for their best, like Ligerty of old, Pintu, Faivre….that even extends to where in the roll the base material came from. Kind of crazy. It’s very detailed stuff.

I know the guy who Alex Martin is teching for now, and wow are they busy!

Our son was fortunate to have access to those kinds of skis, through those guys. He has about 20 pairs stored with us….to be used to make furniture. He has not skied a real GS ski since his race career ended. Though a few pairs did go to athletes that he has coached. Particularly 8-10 years ago.

He is on snow in a non covid year, 12 months a year and well over 200 days. He believes in having his athletes free ski A LOT….directed free skiing. Unless it’s soft deeper snow, etc, they are on GS skis. He’s not.

You are getting REALLY nice skis, but not the rockets made in the Head race room for the best. So, they will be a touch less demanding. They should suit you well. They are still A LOT of ski, so you will need to get dialed in, and i think that picking your spots is smart, wise and considerate. You can ski that ski “old school”, but you won’t get the most out of it in performance or fun!

I can’t recall where the boot topic was left. To ski these the right way, at least eventually you should consider a race boot. And properly fitted, they are not the meat lockers of old.

I suspect that you will love the AX. Again do yourself a favor to acquire current technique however it works best for you. You’ll really enjoy the ski a lot more.

And ease into the GS. Somebody like my friend @ScotsSkier can correct me, but even at the top Masters levels, I think the 193cm skis are pretty rare.

BTW, that speed data is 10 years old. Average speeds for GS on the men’s WC are now a touch over 50mph. That means that when they are hammer down in the right set, they are faster.

Now, I have no idea how people know how fast they are skiing. Watch? GPS? Phone App. I’m not sure how accurate those are. Not a radar gun. Not a speed trap, etc.

Regardless, you are acquiring a fast ski. GS speeds these days are faster than SG back in the day.

Enjoy them. And the camps/clinics, etc.
And listen to tuning tips from guys actually skiing them, or tuning them for those who do!

Have fun.

 

[DocGKR]

To date, I have never seen a 40+ yo Masters GS skier on a 193/30. I tried softer flexing Dynaster/Rossi 193/30's last spring--they were very fun to free ski, but at this stage in my re-developing racing skills I was slower on them in the course than with a 185/27 or 188/30.

Of note--most of the Head GS skis I have been on have proven very stable, damp, and rock solid at speed, but not as energetic, lively, or fun as equivalent Dynastar/Rossi or Blizzard/Nordica.

 

[dcoral]

Thanks Muleski, great info! Very interesting about your experience, observations regarding WC stock.

I don't know if I will be able to do "competitive" turns on the 193 FIS I selected, but I am confident that it will be extremely fun to try anyway.

As far as boots, I'm thinking of getting a 140 race boot online before ski season, as I'm afraid there won't be much selection in Jan with reduced supply chain this year. Then I would have it customized by a bootfitter in Park City or Mammoth. Recommendations for something for a wide foot and high instep? (Verifyt 3D scanning app says 112 wide). I remember the Dobermanns were destroying my instep and it was no fun after an hour on a the slope -- that was the worst pressure point despite a bunch of work done to the boot. So I have a tricky time with LV. Thought is to get something ahead of time that a bootfitter can work with later, instead of limited selection on the shelves if I wait until peak season. I started looking at the Tecnica Firebird and Head Raptor but those are 96 last. I noticed the new Tecnica Mach1 MV Concept 140 which, although not in their race category branding, looks interesting because it is 100 last and I have good experience with Tecnica.

 

[DocGKR]

As mentioned previously, I have an extremely wide forefoot (quad E / 116mm at widest point) with high arch—definitely hard to fit. I typically wear size 10.5/44 shoes. The 110-120 flex All Mountain boots I had been using were not allowing good control of the narrow, stiffer, more precise skis I began using upon getting back into racing.

Reed, the superb boot fitter at Start Haus recommended the Nordica Dobermann as the best option for my wide, high arch feet. After he did 4 hours of work carefully fitting and adapting the boot, Reed was proven right! I have skied the 98mm last 27.5 Nordica Dobermann GP 140 for the last two seasons.

Note that it is best to go to an experienced shop and allow the boot fitter to pick the best option for your feet--don't buy something on the internet and then expect someone to make it work. That rarely ends well.

FWIW, now Reed suggests I consider moving to a 93mm last Nordica Dobermann WC 150 plug for this coming season--more to follow on that....

 

[ScotsSkier]

@dcoral, I

........

And ease into the GS. Somebody like my friend @ScotsSkier can correct me, but even at the top Masters levels, I think the 195cm skis are pretty rare.

BTW, that speed data is 10 years old. Average speeds for GS on the men’s WC are now a touch over 50mph. That means that when they are hammer down in the right set, they are faster.

.......

To date, I have never seen a 40+ yo Masters GS skier on a 193/30. I tried softer flexing Dynaster/Rossi 193/30's last spring--they were very fun to free ski, but at this stage in my re-developing racing skills I was slower on them in the course than with a 185/27 or 188/30.

Of note--most of the Head GS skis I have been on have proven very stable, damp, and rock solid at speed, but not as energetic, lively, or fun as equivalent Dynastar/Rossi or Blizzard/Nordica.

Yup, I can count on one hand, even at National level, the number of Masters racers I see using the 193/30......apart of course from the few who raced years ago and buy the wrong skis thinking they should be on the mens FIS ........and who very quickly find out that skis now are nothing like they were 20 years ago and that they then have to go and buy a ski that they can actually ski in gates. (There is a reason most of the fast masters are on the 188/30 or even the 186/25. .

But I think there is an important point being missed here. It is easy enough to ski anything in a straight line. The secret to speed (and fun) on a GS ski is being able to load it up in the top of the turn into a smaller radius than that marked and then rocket out of the turn using the power of the ski to accelerate (Hint, that is how you generate speed- and big grins - on a GS ski! )

i still have a couple of pairs of the previous mens FIS 195/35 skis in the closet and take them out occasionally. They can be great fun but realistically i am typically doing SG type turns on them rather than GS. And they need a lot of hill.

 

[dcoral]

The secret to speed (and fun) on a GS ski is being able to load it up in the top of the turn into a smaller radius than that marked and then rocket out of the turn using the power of the ski to accelerate (Hint, that is how you generate speed- and big grins - on a GS ski! )

They can be great fun but realistically i am typically doing SG type turns on them rather than GS. And they need a lot of hill.

That description sounds like what I enjoy doing on my current skis, and probably what I will be doing on the new ones, more SG type turns for fun, unless it's in a race camp.

 

[Tony Storaro]

But I think there is an important point being missed here. It is easy enough to ski anything in a straight line. The secret to speed (and fun) on a GS ski is being able to load it up in the top of the turn into a smaller radius than that marked and then rocket out of the turn using the power of the ski to accelerate (Hint, that is how you generate speed- and big grins - on a GS ski! )

And this, right here, is not easy even on a cheater GS ski like my beloved WRT ST in 180. Not every single turn I mean. Some turns works, others-not. And is a quite a bit of work...well for me. I can only imagine what it would be on a real 193/30 FIS ski.
I am very much looking for updates here.

 

[slow-line-fast]

Similar history here - after a gap (last GS ski was a 197 Dynastar SF...), ended up with the 187/26 G9, following lots of useful information on this site. I've only had about 10 days on them so can't say much yet, but for where I am at, they seem a good fit.

I've been the last few seasons on FIS SLs and would second the suggestions that these can be a great way to work on modern ski technique without needing too much space (but still, look out from behind...) Lots of fun too. Sometimes... I wouldn't say 'punishing', but would say 'offer immediate and clear feedback'.

In both cases one needs a lot of empty hill. Carving at SL speeds the hazard comes from behind, even sometimes on GS - fast-skidding skiers who (I presume) have no idea that the person ahead of them will be carrying momentum laterally across the hill as they make turns.

 

[bbbradley]

Yup, I can count on one hand, even at National level, the number of Masters racers I see using the 193/30......apart of course from the few who raced years ago and buy the wrong skis thinking they should be on the mens FIS ........and who very quickly find out that skis now are nothing like they were 20 years ago and that they then have to go and buy a ski that they can actually ski in gates. (There is a reason most of the fast masters are on the 188/30 or even the 186/25. .

Knowing what I know now, I'd have held out for a slightly smaller ski for the Master's GS races I do, the 188/30 require a lot of care and feeding. If I could find a pair of 186/25 or even slightly smaller they may be faster on the course. I have plans for some coaching this winter to see if I can dial them in more. There are a couple of the top skiers at our events on 193/30 (including the guy that wins most events), most of them are in the M1 age bracket. I've not been on the 188/30 since new boots (Raptor 140) that replaced worn-out Noridca Speedmachines, I hope the new platform provides some improvement.

I'm awaiting @Muleski or @ScotsSkier to open up their secret stash of skis for old guys like me who still like to race but can't quite make the FIS skis work so well.