Mt Bachelor being sued over death of 9yr old

[eok]

... PNL? Left of what?

Central Oregon.

 

[fatbob]

Doesn't matter what kind of signage the resort employed. There will always some clueless ones that will drop in and get over terrain. Then blame the resort.

Seen it often enough.

I understand this argument that "fools be fools" and nothing can ever be enough for them. But what about the non-fools that primarily lack information or experience particuarly in local conditions/terrain.

Most of the skiing world doesn't nerd out on micro weather nor have the skills to truly ski anything in front of them or even judge if they have the skills. Some if travelling for the first time from tame, small hills may be simply be overwhelmed by scale and variation in conditions let alone navigation. Plus people screw up every day in all sorts of mundane things. Failsafes help.

 

[KingGrump]

Central Oregon.

This would be the follow up question in Jaywalking - Which state is Oregon in?

 

[David Chaus]

This would be the follow up question in Jaywalking - Which state is Oregon in?

Denial. At least for part of the state.

 

[KingGrump]

Denial. At least for part of the state.

Denial? Isn't that in Egypt?

 

[crgildart]

Doesn't matter what kind of signage the resort employed. There will always some clueless ones that will drop in and get over terrain. Then blame the resort.

Seen it often enough.

Yes but from a liability standpoint, when things get litigated, proper, accurate signage favors the resort over the cluess who ignored said signage. Was the trail skiing how it was labeled at the time? Yes? Idiot touron can go pound sand,. Was it skiing entirely different than labeled? Yes? Resort can go pound sand..

 

[James]

Going to have to add this to the list.

-Ski an icy Blue and you will die.

 

[slowrider]

This would be the follow up question in Jaywalking - Which state is Oregon in?

The answer is California.

 

[crgildart]

Surprised nobody's mentioned that blue trails are where most skiers die.. Or, more accurately hooking an edge and veering right off of blue trails in to trees.

 

[James]

Surprised nobody's mentioned that blue trails are where most skiers die.. Or, more accurately hooking an edge and veering right off of blue trails in to trees.

Since a child was involved, we were slower. Page 4-

Most deaths do occur on blues, generally involving trees.

 

[Seldomski]

Yes but from a liability standpoint, when things get litigated, proper, accurate signage favors the resort over the cluess who ignored said signage. Was the trail skiing how it was labeled at the time? Yes? Idiot touron can go pound sand,. Was it skiing entirely different than labeled? Yes? Resort can go pound sand..

What sort of signage are you suggesting?

Yes, I would personally like it if snow conditions were posted and accurate - I typically ask people on the lift where they have been skiing and 'where is the snow good?' I also watch people coming down to gauge how firm it is and how good you need to be to ski something well. But things can change so quickly, I don't see how you could label everything fast enough. Wind gusts, sun, snowfall, skier traffic, etc all change the character very quickly.

When I ski in a group, people tend to have wildly different impressions on what 'icy' really is depending on their ability and even what side of the run they came down. I may find the run to be excellent snow, but someone else complains it is too icy. And to a former ski racer, the condition would be too soft/slushy for them and their equipment setup. A local may consider the run to be skiing better than usual. Someone who skis mainly at Vail may consider it to be abysmal, or wonder why it is even open at all with all the rocks poking through. Different resorts have different thresholds for coverage when they open things.

The conditions signs I have seen posted are generally:
Thin Cover // Early Season Conditions Exist
Variable Conditions (sometimes Spring Conditions)
Experts Only, No beginners (this one does scare a few away, but you still get some self-proclaimed intermediates / advanced attempting to ski it anyway).

 

[crgildart]

What sort of signage are you suggesting?

Yes, I would personally like it if snow conditions were posted and accurate - I typically ask people on the lift where they have been skiing and 'where is the snow good?' I also watch people coming down to gauge how firm it is and how good you need to be to ski something well. But things can change so quickly, I don't see how you could label everything fast enough. Wind gusts, sun, snowfall, skier traffic, etc all change the character very quickly.

When I ski in a group, people tend to have wildly different impressions on what 'icy' really is depending on their ability and even what side of the run they came down. I may find the run to be excellent snow, but someone else complains it is too icy. And to a former ski racer, the condition would be too soft/slushy for them and their equipment setup. A local may consider the run to be skiing better than usual. Someone who skis mainly at Vail may consider it to be abysmal, or wonder why it is even open at all with all the rocks poking through. Different resorts have different thresholds for coverage when they open things.

The conditions signs I have seen posted are generally:
Thin Cover // Early Season Conditions Exist
Variable Conditions (sometimes Spring Conditions)
Experts Only, No beginners (this one does scare a few away, but you still get some self-proclaimed intermediates / advanced attempting to ski it anyway).

I've been saying either make it a black permanently even though it's probably super easy when hero snow or close it when it's skiing gnarly.... Plenty of testimony here from people who know this trail that intermediate skiers don't belong on this trail when it's unusually icy. What's the downside to labeling it a black?

 

[Andy Mink]

What's the downside to labeling it a black?

People who COULD ski it fine in good conditions may not ski it and miss the experience. Word would get out that it's not REALLY a black, so go ahead and ski it. Then we end up back where we are. I'm more for the "Blue, but conditions can and do change frequently and without warning" type sign at the bottom of the lift.

 

[KingGrump]

I understand this argument that "fools be fools" and nothing can ever be enough for them. But what about the non-fools that primarily lack information or experience particuarly in local conditions/terrain.

Most of the skiing world doesn't nerd out on micro weather nor have the skills to truly ski anything in front of them or even judge if they have the skills. Some if travelling for the first time from tame, small hills may be simply be overwhelmed by scale and variation in conditions let alone navigation. Plus people screw up every day in all sorts of mundane things. Failsafes help.

TBH, I really don't have a solution to the non-fools. Perhaps try to get the information out there with more free mountain tours.

Most skiers have a very poor understanding of the concepts involved in skiing. The ski school can definitely help. Conversation with the instructor while riding the chairlift can be enlightening experience for many.
Ski schools can definitely do better with their marketing. Most skiers are not aware that the ski school can vastly improve their on hill experience.

Even at a place like Taos, I am constantly talking to skier on the hill, chair lift, lunch room about their ski week program. Most are not aware of the existence of the program. Some are reluctant until I tell them the price. Almost to a person, they are all thinking about it the next time back.

 

[markojp]

Yes but from a liability standpoint, when things get litigated, proper, accurate signage favors the resort over the cluess who ignored said signage. Was the trail skiing how it was labeled at the time? Yes? Idiot touron can go pound sand,. Was it skiing entirely different than labeled? Yes? Resort can go pound sand..

So I guess we shut down everything when it's icy and pound beers?

FWIW, at Crystal Mountain WA, "Long slides possible" is often posted at the top of steep, groomed slopes on firm days, and no, they aren't kidding. So do we shut down?

Also FWIW it's important to coach others on looking and listening for cues about slope conditions while on the chair. I very often share slope telemetry data links with people so we can anticipate conditions including clothing choices while booting up. It's often not possible to tell what one needs on the hill when in the parking lot.

 

[markojp]

Dude, not satisfied with teaching people how to ski? Now, you want to teach them geography?

Jay Leno JayWalking: Geography Test

Most skiers from east of the Rockies think of the skiing the Rocky Mountains resorts as skiing out west. CO, UT & WY. Oh yeah, NM, that 3rd world country.

The Sierras and Cascade? You mean there is something further west than the Rockies?
Oh yeah, California, been there once. PNL? Left of what?

Every morning I hauled salt this past summer at Timberline, I most certainly didn't want to fall, not to mention drop a 40lb plastic bag.

I truly do feel for the family, but we're looking at the distinct possibility of the entire ski industry in the US being severely impacted in their ability to operate if potential liability on icy days outweighs our own responsibility to mitigate risk.

 

[Tricia]

Doesn't matter what kind of signage the resort employed. There will always some clueless ones that will drop in and get over terrain. Then blame the resort.

Seen it often enough.

I really believe this kind of signage was in place at this particular lift when we skied Bachelor, but I'd lean to the locals for confirmation.

It's not uncommon for there to be so much signage that people become oblivious to the message(s)

 

[slowrider]

I really believe this kind of signage was in place at this particular lift when we skied Bachelor, but I'd lean to the locals for confirmation.

It's not uncommon for there to be so much signage that people become oblivious to the message(s)

I took a road test for a fuel truck co. During the extensive driving part the evaluator asked me what was the last road sign I saw. I had to think for a second.....I drove fuel for awhile. It wasn't for me.

 

[Tricia]

These are two signs from Aspen and Aspen Snowmass. I took a picture because they made me chuckle. Not sure if there was any other signage at either of these lifts and I usually pay attention, so I'm putting myself in the category of, "don't always pay attention to signage"

I took a picture of this one because seeing that the Naked Lady was groomed made me chuckle.


I wonder if Joey and Taylor ever found their blue marker.

 

[Bill Miles]

Sign says top "yes" and midway "please don't.' Not a clue what this means and could be an issue if there was an accident.