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Narrow tele boots?

Mark1975

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UH-OH. The pair of 25.5 Scarpa TX Pro (women‘s) arrived today. They are nice! NOT wide, at least for me. The heel pocket and instep are narrower. The length inside the boot has got to be longer than the Crispis because I‘m not jamming my toes. These 25.5’s are pretty comfy, and I can flex the bellows (very nice feeling flex at the bellows and cuff). My left foot is a bit longer; that boot has a bit less room at the toe. The cuff is taller; definitely tighter; I have it on the first notch. Instep is on the first notch; a shocker.

I did not shell fit the boot yet; I will have Billy do that. I can feel the plastic of the shell at the bellows when I flex; it doesn’t hurt but don’t know if I this isn’t good or not. I do have the 26.5 coming to try, too. I am just trying on right now with the stock insole, which must be decent enough for an initial impression.

Thank God I’m visiting a good bootfitter!

Fit is key, but what other characteristics of the boot are important for me, as pretty much a beginner? This boot is much softer than I expected; I like the flex of it.

Is having the option to lock down the heel as is possible on the Crispis important? Is the lack of it a dealbreaker? You guys have been so helpful, keep it coming!

That is why I was glad you ordered them too! Gives you another option that you wouldn't have had if you did not take a chance on them.

Personally, the lack of heel connection would not be a deal breaker for me. The optional Meidjo heel kit is an interesting option...but it is just an option. You got to go with whatever boots work best for your foot. You can still make pretty good alpine turns on tele with the heel free.
 

Mark1975

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I was puzzled by someone here mentioning the instep was too tight...

That was probably me. I have an odd instep area. It is higher than typical, but what is not typical is how far it extends into the forefoot. The Scarpa didn't hurt where my instep meets my ankle, it crushes my instep near the forefoot. It seems the Crispi is similar to the Scarpa fit at the instep/ankle area, but retains that height further into the forefoot area. Just enough so that the front of my instep is not being crushed. It is tight, but not crushing. I have the same problem with Alpine boots that have the instep area "flatten" too quickly. However, if I try on a pair of boots that are truly high volumes throughout the instep area, my foot at the instep/ankle area is swimming in them (but they will fit the front of my instep very nice). Every boot that I use is a compromise. I want hold down in the instep/ankle area first, and I am willing to have some tightness over the instep to achieve that. But if that area is in constant pain, I have learned that boot is not for me.
 

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Yes.
How much toe room is in your boots? Can you describe?
The 26.5’s arrive tomorrow here.

Just remember that with both Crispi and Scarpa, the size splits are 25.5/26, 26.5/27.... Alpine boot manufactures that most all of us ski are 25/25.5, 26/26.5, etc....
 
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Wendy

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Just remember that with both Crispi and Scarpa, the size splits are 25.5/26, 26.5/27.... Alpine boot manufactures that most all of us ski are 25/25.5, 26/26.5, etc....
YUP, I realize that. My 25.5 Scarpas are really a 26; and the 26.5’s are really a 27.
......
Wait. I think now I understand what you’re saying: My alpine boots are a 25 and the Scarpas are a 26. OH! So, I wouldn‘t be wearing a tele boot that’s the same size as my alpine boots...it’s still a mondo size larger.

I can be a little thick sometimes. :rolleyes:

The numbers part of me feels better. :) LOL.

I was able to make some other comparisons last night:

The Scarpa has Vibram soles; the Crispi does not.
The Scarpa is a 4 buckle boot, the Crispi is three.
The Scarpa as a higher cuff than the Crispi.
The Scarpa has an Intuition liner with a cuff; the Crispi is some other type of moldable wrap liner.
The Scarpa has an an adjustable cuff; the Crispi does not.
The Scarpa has a softer flex and softer bellows than the Crispi.
The Scarpa has a slightly easier to operate walk mode than the Crispi.
The Scarpa fits better than the Crispi.

@Mark1975, the lack of heel connection via the Meidjo with the Scarpa isn’t a deal breaker for me. You’re right: if the boot fits a lot better, it will be easier to make alpine turns.

I think I know where I’m going here. :)

It will be interesting to see how the fit is after heat molding. And putting in my custom footbeds. (I can’t do that until the bootfitter’s because he has my new footbeds. My other ones have boot heaters on them and the cord interferes with fit when it’s inside the liner, as it would be if I just stuck them in there temporarily).
 

Mark1975

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YUP, I realize that. My 25.5 Scarpas are really a 26; and the 26.5’s are really a 27.
......
Wait. I think now I understand what you’re saying: My alpine boots are a 25 and the Scarpas are a 26. OH! So, I wouldn‘t be wearing a tele boot that’s the same size as my alpine boots...it’s still a mondo size larger.

I can be a little thick sometimes. :rolleyes:

The numbers part of me feels better. :) LOL.

I was able to make some other comparisons last night:

The Scarpa has Vibram soles; the Crispi does not.
The Scarpa is a 4 buckle boot, the Crispi is three.
The Scarpa as a higher cuff than the Crispi.
The Scarpa has an Intuition liner with a cuff; the Crispi is some other type of moldable wrap liner.
The Scarpa has an an adjustable cuff; the Crispi does not.
The Scarpa has a softer flex and softer bellows than the Crispi.
The Scarpa has a slightly easier to operate walk mode than the Crispi.
The Scarpa fits better than the Crispi.

@Mark1975, the lack of heel connection via the Meidjo with the Scarpa isn’t a deal breaker for me. You’re right: if the boot fits a lot better, it will be easier to make alpine turns.

I think I know where I’m going here. :)

It will be interesting to see how the fit is after heat molding. And putting in my custom footbeds. (I can’t do that until the bootfitter’s because he has my new footbeds. My other ones have boot heaters on them and the cord interferes with fit when it’s inside the liner, as it would be if I just stuck them in there temporarily).

If your alpine boots are a 25, more than likely they are really a 25.5 shell (with a 25.5 liner) Labeled a 25 "just to make you feel better" ogsmile

When I was in college (a long time ago now :() I got a seasonal part time job at a local ski shop. I ended up working with the boot fitter, who was really good. He taught me how to fit, punch and grind boots. Whenever a customer would come in for new boots, he would tell me if he brought out the correct size for them, more often that not, they would always ask for a half size up. For example, if a 26.5 shell was the size they needed, they would try it on, then ask for a 27. The problem is a 27 is really a 27.5, so the boot would be one shell size too big. So he would bring out boots labeled 26.0 (which are really a 26.5 shell). The customer would try them on, then say a 26.5 boot would fit better. He would say "No problem, I will grab the 26.5 for you" (which is the same exact boot :ogbiggrin:) Now, the customer would try that on and say "That fits much better, I knew I needed the half size bigger" :roflmao:
 
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Wendy

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If your alpine boots are a 25, more than likely they are really a 25.5 shell (with a 25.5 liner) Labeled a 25 "just to make you feel better" ogsmile

When I was in college (a long time ago now :() I got a seasonal part time job at a local ski shop. I ended up working with the boot fitter, who was really good. He taught me how to fit, punch and grind boots. Whenever a customer would come in for new boots, he would tell me if he brought out the correct size for them, more often that not, they would always ask for a half size up. For example, if a 26.5 shell was the size they needed, they would try it on, then ask for a 27. The problem is a 27 is really a 27.5, so the boot would be one shell size to big. So he would bring out boots labeled 26.0 (which are really a 26.5 shell). The customer would try them on, then say a 26.5 boot would fit better. He would say "No problem, I will grab the 26.5 for you" (which is the same exact boot :ogbiggrin:) Now, the customer would try that on and say "That fits much better, I knew I needed the half size bigger" :roflmao:
Yup, haha. My Atomics ”are” 25.5. So that’s a 25.
I thought that alpine boots have slightly different liner thicknesses between half sizes; maybe not. Martin Fey said there’s absolutely no difference whatsoever in tele boot liners in half sizes.It’s a ruse to make the customer happy.

I got a bit muddled in the head when I failed to remember @Mark1975’s excellent post in this thread.
So my alpine boot is technically a 25 (25.5), and the current best candidate for a tele boot is a 26 (25.5).

We can play the numbers game a little more: My Atomic’s have a BSL of 290mm (thin shell); the Scarpas in a 25.5/26 have a BSL of 299 (shell decidedly a little thicker, but not thick per se).

OH! The Scarpas also have an adjustable cuff angle. Crispis do not. That’s important for me as I usually need the cuffs moved inward.
 
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Wendy

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Here are the Scarpas:
1E9342FE-F983-4AA6-89C4-9B0E57832557.jpeg
 

Mark1975

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Yup, haha. My Atomics ”are” 25.5. So that’s a 25.
I thought that alpine boots have slightly different liner thicknesses between half sizes; maybe not. Martin Fey said there’s absolutely no difference whatsoever in tele boot liners in half sizes.It’s a ruse to make the customer happy.

I got a bit muddled in the head when I failed to remember @Mark1975’s excellent post in this thread.
So my alpine boot is technically a 25 (25.5), and the current best candidate for a tele boot is a 26 (25.5).

We can play the numbers game a little more: My Atomic’s have a BSL of 290mm (thin shell); the Scarpas in a 25.5/26 have a BSL of 299 (shell decidedly a little thicker, but not thick per se).

OH! The Scarpas also have an adjustable cuff angle. Crispis do not. That’s important for me as I usually need the cuffs moved inward.

If your Atomics are labeled 25.5, they are a 25.5 shell. The "25" boot has a fake label on it. The "25.5" boot is labeled correctly. Atomic only makes shells in the half size: 23.5/24.5/25.5/26.5/27.5 etc. So...23 and 23.5 = same shell...24 and 24.5 = same shell...25 and 25.5 = same shell...etc.

The Scarpa labeled 25.5 has the fake label. A 26.0 would have the correct label. Scarpa only makes boot shells on the whole size: 23/24/25/26/27, etc. So...22.5 and 23 = same shell...23.5 and 24 = same shell...24.5 and 25 = same shell...25.5 and 26 = same shell...etc

There is also no real standard that exactly relates measured BSL and assigned shell size to the actual internal length and volume across different boot models from the same company or across boots from different companies. There is just a trend that longer BSL is a larger shell size and longer internal length for boots within a given model line.

That is why you really must try them all on. That is why so many people get burned when just ordering from the internet. If someone has a 26.5 Atomic and sees a 26.5 Lange on sale and blindly orders it assuming a 26.5 Atomic = a 26.5 Lange, then they may be making an expensive and frustrating mistake.
 
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Wendy

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If your Atomics are labeled 25.5, they are a 25.5 shell. The "25" boot has a fake label on it. The "25.5" boot is labeled correctly. Atomic only makes shells in the half size: 23.5/24.5/25.5/26.5/27.5 etc. So...23 and 23.5 = same shell...24 and 24.5 = same shell...25 and 25.5 = same shell...etc.

The Scarpa labeled 25.5 has the fake label. A 26.0 would have the correct label. Scarpa only makes boot shells on the whole size: 23/24/25/26/27, etc. So...22.5 and 23 = same shell...23.5 and 24 = same shell...24.5 and 25 = same shell...25.5 and 26 = same shell...etc

There is also no real standard that exactly relates measured BSL and assigned shell size to the actual internal length and volume across different boot models from the same company or across boots from different companies. There is just a trend that longer BSL is a larger shell size and longer internal length for boots within a given model line.

That is why you really must try them all on. That is why so many people get burned when just ordering from the internet. If someone has a 26.5 Atomic and sees a 26.5 Lange on sale and blindly orders it assuming a 26.5 Atomic = a 26.5 Lange, then they may be making an expensive and frustrating mistake.
OK, got it. Alpine boot = 25.5 shell. Tele boot = 26 shell. Internet buying sucks, I agree. If I had a dealer nearby with multiple boots to try I would’ve hightailed it there.

Which is why there’s currently 4 boxes of boots in my office, and an appointment with my bootfitter next Friday. :)

This is really no worse than buying an alpine boot; it just adds a little confusion with most of my experience in alpine boots muddying up my brain.

After I get all this sorted, I can say that I know a bit more and *maybe* could offer some advice to somebody else.
 

Mark1975

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This is not factoring in such things a different ramp angles, different forward lean angles, different internal volume in different places in the boot. Can the boot be ground and punched in the right areas if needed? The typical skier has no idea what to look for in a boot. That is why it is so common now to be in a shop, have a skier come in and say "Hey, I got these boots on the internet, and now I can't ski very well in them"

You are doing the right thing by going to a boot fitter with a number of options, and working with him for the best solution :golfclap:
 
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Wendy

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So, I visited my bootfitter today and the winner is: 25.5 Scarpa TX Pro. I got the liners heat molded, and my fitter/pedorthist also made me some awesome new custom footbeds. Molding with the toe cap really made the bellows area comfy and set my heel back in the pocket more, as well as molded the liner to fit my shins and adjusted the cuff angle. After moving the cuff buckles (cuffs were too tight), now the boot fits very well. Since I’ve got a narrow instep/heel, it’s possible that after skiing for awhile they’ll pack out too much....we shall see. But it’s a great start with a well fitting, comfortable boot that has a nice flex and easy bellows flex that should help me work on my transitions without holding me back. Plenty of room to adjust buckles, too.

Now....for bindings!
 

Mark1975

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Wendy, if you are still following this tread...

I ended up in a Scarpa TX Comp (surprise!)

It turns out that the instep problem I had when first trying them out was not due to the way the shell is molded. They actually are very similar in height to the Crispi. It has to do with the length and mounting location of the instep cable on a Scarpa boot that effectively makes the cable much shorter than on a Crispi boot of the same size. Problem solved by swapping out the cable for a longer one the bootfitter obtained from Scarpa.

I decided to use a Zipfit Freeride liner instead of the heat molded liner that came with the boot.

The Scarpa is a little wider fit in the forefoot than the Crispi, but with the way a Zitfit holds your foot in place, along with an instep cable that now holds my heel in place without crushing my instep, I hardly notice any difference in the forefoot as far as tipping the boot on edge.

Going with the TX Comp will prevent me from trying a tech toe binding like the Meidjo, but there are a number of excellent cage toe NTN bindings out there. I decided to use the Rottefella Freeride since almost all my skiing will be inbounds anyway. It is the binding of choice for telemark racing, so it works extremely well on hardpack.

I actually was able to get a few days in on the new setup. It only took a few runs to get used to the NTN over my old 75mm setup. I am running the spring tension right in the middle of the range at the 3 position. I don't like over active bindings snapping my foot back, so this setting felt about right. The edging of the NTN is far better than the 75mm. You can carve trenches in the snow while doing tele turns. Parallel turns are near alpine level with this system. All in all, a fun way to end the season.
 
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Wendy

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Wendy, if you are still following this tread...

I ended up in a Scarpa TX Comp (surprise!)

It turns out that the instep problem I had when first trying them out was not due to the way the shell is molded. They actually are very similar in height to the Crispi. It has to do with the length and mounting location of the instep cable on a Scarpa boot that effectively makes the cable much shorter than on a Crispi boot of the same size. Problem solved by swapping out the cable for a longer one the bootfitter obtained from Scarpa.

I decided to use a Zipfit Freeride liner instead of the heat molded liner that came with the boot.

The Scarpa is a little wider fit in the forefoot than the Crispi, but with the way a Zitfit holds your foot in place, along with an instep cable that now holds my heel in place without crushing my instep, I hardly notice any difference in the forefoot as far as tipping the boot on edge.

Going with the TX Comp will prevent me from trying a tech toe binding like the Meidjo, but there are a number of excellent cage toe NTN bindings out there. I decided to use the Rottefella Freeride since almost all my skiing will be inbounds anyway. It is the binding of choice for telemark racing, so it works extremely well on hardpack.

I actually was able to get a few days in on the new setup. It only took a few runs to get used to the NTN over my old 75mm setup. I am running the spring tension right in the middle of the range at the 3 position. I don't like over active bindings snapping my foot back, so this setting felt about right. The edging of the NTN is far better than the 75mm. You can carve trenches in the snow while doing tele turns. Parallel turns are near alpine level with this system. All in all, a fun way to end the season.
Hey! Cool that you found a boot that works. I would love to hear how the Zipfit Freeride feels after you’ve had some more time in it. Since my foot is so narrow, I’m unsure of how the Intuition liner will hold up for me. However, I like the wider forefoot in the Scarpas, and, the heel hold is better for me.

I haven’t quite decided on a binding yet for my TX Pro’s. I was considering the Rottefella Freeride, but I’m not sure yet and am intrigued by the option of touring with the Meidjo.

I’m going to take my boots/skis up to the Fey brothers in June for a mount. At that point I’ll know what I end up with!

Thanks for the update!
 

Paul Lutes

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Wendy, if you are still following this tread...

I ended up in a Scarpa TX Comp (surprise!)

It turns out that the instep problem I had when first trying them out was not due to the way the shell is molded. They actually are very similar in height to the Crispi. It has to do with the length and mounting location of the instep cable on a Scarpa boot that effectively makes the cable much shorter than on a Crispi boot of the same size. Problem solved by swapping out the cable for a longer one the bootfitter obtained from Scarpa.
......

Interesting - can I assume you have a fairly high arch? The reason a say this is that I have to go in the opposite direction - shorter than the stock on the instep cable, and after my final tightening for the day I'm maxed out on adjustment. I have a very low arch. Did you get to swap the cable or did your boot fitter do it? That inner nut on the cable anchor bolt is ...... challenging! AKA PITA.
 

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... Did you get to swap the cable or did your boot fitter do it? That inner nut on the cable anchor bolt is ...... challenging! AKA PITA.
I’ve replaced a few of those cables, and IMO the only way to deal with that nut is to drill the bolt out and replace it. Scarpa knows this, it’s been reasonably easy to obtain a replacement bolt & nut.
 

Paul Lutes

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Ha! Did you epoxy the nut on the way Scarpa apparently does? :geek:
I didn't and It has loosened to the point that one morning while booting up it just popped off - panic ensued. I thought the threads were stripped but it had just loosened to the point of release. Now tightening is part of daily ritual.
 

Mark1975

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Interesting - can I assume you have a fairly high arch? The reason a say this is that I have to go in the opposite direction - shorter than the stock on the instep cable, and after my final tightening for the day I'm maxed out on adjustment. I have a very low arch. Did you get to swap the cable or did your boot fitter do it? That inner nut on the cable anchor bolt is ...... challenging! AKA PITA.

I actually have a low arch, but a high instep and thick ankle bone. Basically, a lot of volume where my foot meets the ankle.

The bootfitter order the cables, but I changed them out myself.

I though it was going to be a PITA, but Scarpa has a video on Youtube to show you how to do it. It actually went very smooth.

First, you need something to wedge between the cuff and shell to force the inner square nut into the square recess in the shell to prevent it from spinning. Scarpa recommends a very long, large flat blade screwdriver. I didn't have one that big, so I used the steel ruler from a combination square.

Next, you need to find a way to heat up the bolt from the outside of the cuff. By heating up the bolt, you soften up the Loctite that keeps the bolt from getting loose. One way is to heat the bolt head with a soldering iron. I have a small butane pocket torch that produces a very small, pin point flame. I just briefly hit the center of the bolt with the flame for a split second. Then I would feel it, hit it again with the flame, feel it etc. You want to stop heating just when the bolt feels very warm to the touch, almost to the point that it feels too warm for skin contact, but no hotter. This will soften up the Loctite, but not be too hot to melt any plastic.

At this point, I put pressure on the steel ruler to force the plastic shell tight against the square nut and started to turn the bolt with a metric allen wrench. The bolt came right off with the Loctite being the consistency of a sticky goo. No problems at all!

I let the bolt cool down and cleaned the remaining Loctite off the bolt. For reassembly, I used a product called Vibra-tite VC3 threadlocker. It works differently than Loctite. Basically a thermoplastic resin that sticks to the bolt threads and prevents vibrations from allowing the bolt to loosen. It allows easier disassembly if needed since it doesn't "glue" the bolt like Loctite does. The only negative is you have to let it cure for 30 minutes prior to assembly.
 
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Wendy

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At this point, there was no need to swap out the cable, though I can’t say what will happen next season. That instep buckle and heel pocket was what made the Scarpa have the best fit (by far) for me. I’ve got a genius bootfitter if I need some adjustments.
 

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Ha! Did you epoxy the nut on the way Scarpa apparently does? :geek:
I didn't and It has loosened to the point that one morning while booting up it just popped off - panic ensued. I thought the threads were stripped but it had just loosened to the point of release. Now tightening is part of daily ritual.
IIRC, the bolts had Loctite on it. Yours didn’t? Or did you reuse the old one?
 

Paul Lutes

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IIRC, the bolts had Loctite on it. Yours didn’t? Or did you reuse the old one?
Not sure - my boot fitter did the work and the word "concrete" figured prominently regarding the removal. Now I'm wondering if he decided to not apply any loctite, and that's why the one popped loose.
 

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