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NCAA alpine skiing it not a fair level of competition.

James

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I mean there’s essentially no where to go in ski racing. There are very few spots available. There’s one national team, not 32.
 

Mark1975

Getting on the lift
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We only have ourselves to blame for poor alpine skiing media coverage in the United States. For example, you can add up all the ski academies in this country and the total enrollment is probably less than 1,000 kids. What other sport in the United States costs $65K to participate? Be like Mikaela? No worries as BMA would be happy to clean out your investment account................LOL

Here in the Northeast we have thousands of kids who live within 30 to 60 minutes from a ski area and most of them will never have the opportunity to even enter a NASTAR race.
$65K? That is doing it on the cheap for high level racing. You can spend close to 100K a year at a ski academy with the tuition, equipment, European training and race trips, off season athletic trainer, etc. I met a guy this winter who stated the same. Sent his daughter, who started racing with the local club development team at 8 years old, to a ski academy in New England for high school. He said he stopped counting when the total outlay hit $375,000 midway through her senior year. She was courted by several smaller D1 programs, but none of those schools offered what she wanted to major in. Ended up at a D3 school, but quit ski racing after her freshman year to concentrate on her major and future career (a VERY smart decision on her part IMHO). The mandatory 2 day per week on snow time was taking up over 4 hours per day with travel time to the ski area and gate training. Plus, there was mandatory dryland training several times a week that happened at 5am in the athletic facility. The ski team got the 5am slot because better times where saved for the university's football, hockey, and basketball programs. This left her burnt out, exhausted, and always behind in coursework for a Civil Engineering major, so she just walked away from the ski team. He has two younger kids, and I asked him if he was planning to get them involved with racing. His response: Hell no! His second oldest son plays basketball for their local school. Cost: $50 per season.

Forget climate change, the entire ski industry is a doing a damn good job of pricing themselves right out of business. I know "1 percenters" that are having second thoughts of just skiing, not alone the totally absurd costs of ski racing.
 
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Rudi Riet

AKA songfta AKA randomduck - a USSS coach, as well
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His second oldest son plays basketball for their local school. Cost: $50 per season.

So that $50 includes equipment and travel expenses (e.g. lodging, meals)? Methinks that's not the all-inclusive price per season.

But yes, ski racing is too expensive on the whole. There are a lot of costs that are inflated, not the least of the guilty parties being smaller market clubs and teams that charge top dollar for their events because they're trying to fundraise via their races.

That said: being a ski racer (and especially being one in the U.S.) is an exercise in critical thinking and decision making, as well as time budgeting. Those who pursue it in high school and college are often tasked with sacrificing certain things in order to keep racing. This could mean giving up on a dream class, highly curtailing social activities, adhering to a nonstandard sleep schedule, and so forth. It is a great teacher for life, though: you learn how to weigh pros and cons, how to plan, and how to sacrifice in order to achieve a long-term goal. These are skills I owe to ski racing - and I'm sure there are others who followed their extracurricular passions and have seen similar outcomes.

The cost is absurd. The "arms race" of needing new equipment every season (or the perception that this needs to happen) is beyond the pale. The various bits and bobs of tuning equipment, clothing, armor, wax, you name it: they all add up and in the great majority of cases they're unnecessary to replace on the regular. I applaud the racing families who've discovered that a $300 pair of racing gloves is less useful than a $25 pair of Kinco mittens (yes, even for racing - use your pole guards, folks!). There are a slew of hacks in this regard that work, but they're not always publicized.

And in terms of all the on-snow training it's a mixed bag. Quality will always beat quantity, but there's also something to be said for having enough volume of well-run training under your feet before competition. The main problem here is that all too many summer ski racing camps have the athletes bashing gates again and again with only minimal work on technical problems - something that summer/off-season training is most suited to accomplish.

While quite a few coaches (and more athletes than would care to admit in mixed company) would rather these camps be weighted toward drills and technical development, the parents often say "we're paying a lot for this camp so my kid had better be running TONS of gates!" And the coaches are often dealing with too many athletes at once (especially at the "all-purpose" camps) so that kind of attention to detail simply doesn't happen. Unless the camps are run directly by teams that have a 24/7/365 continuity of pedagogy, the camp "businesses" hew toward "all gates, all the time" because it brings in the bucks and allows the camps to continue from year to year.

(An exception to this: Keely Kelleher's Camp for Girls has a lot of focus on fundamentals and free skiing development before they set any gates. Kudos to her for making this a workable model outside of an internal team structure.)

And yes, skiing in general is becoming too expensive. If you buy a conglomerate season pass below market rate that saves a little cash but there are still quite a few other expenses: travel (airfare, transportation from airport to resort, food, lodging, etc.), ski equipment, et al. It's venture a guess that most on this site have the means to make this happen every year. Adding in the additional expense of racing and, well, it gets absurd.

As I often tell people: if not for my coaching alpine ski racing I'd likely not be able to afford the sport, or at the very least I'd only be skiing a handful of days each season. I'd probably pivot to XC skiing or just ride my bicycles year-round.
 

k2rider

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I have no idea what the fees are to be part of the Mammoth development teams but a friend/co-worker of mine had their daughter in the snowboarding program and I know he didn't even make $100K. They started their daughter snowboarding at age 3 and once she was old enough to be part of the program at Mammoth, she started competing and did well from the get-go. They drove up from San Diego County 3 weekends a month for her to train and compete. They eventually bought a cheap condo to stay in on those weekends. It all worked out I guess because she's now on the national team and went to the last Olympics in China. Chloe Kim was 4-5 years older but part of the same development program.
 

James

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It’s not like travel ice hockey is cheap.

It is possible to do NCAA Div 1 skiing and still study. Maybe not at the very highest level of racing. I personally know two who did it four years. One got just about every academic award one could get, and they both were science majors. One now works in research for a biotech company, the other is in sales (!) for an energy company.
 

S.H.

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I have no idea what the fees are to be part of the Mammoth development teams but a friend/co-worker of mine had their daughter in the snowboarding program and I know he didn't even make $100K. They started their daughter snowboarding at age 3 and once she was old enough to be part of the program at Mammoth, she started competing and did well from the get-go. They drove up from San Diego County 3 weekends a month for her to train and compete. They eventually bought a cheap condo to stay in on those weekends. It all worked out I guess because she's now on the national team and went to the last Olympics in China. Chloe Kim was 4-5 years older but part of the same development program.

snowboard development team for 9-12 YOs was about $6K for this year.
The "elite" team about $8K

Prices probably don't include travel or competition fees.
Definitely don't include equipment/apparel.
 

dan ross

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Two of my coaches in high school were two brothers 2-3 years older than me. Both ultimately went to D 1 schools ,Northeastern and Colorado. The sacrifices they and their parents made were real . The boys lives consisted of racing and academics. I don’t think I ever saw or heard of them in social situations. They were middle class and this was the 70’s, it was easier then financially but nothing about it was easy. Both are doing well and have made good lives for themselves and I am still grateful for the time they spent making us better skiers.
 

k2rider

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snowboard development team for 9-12 YOs was about $6K for this year.
The "elite" team about $8K

Prices probably don't include travel or competition fees.
Definitely don't include equipment/apparel.

Well I know she was sponsored by Burton and Oakley but yes, her parents dished out plenty of $$ for travel. Getting the spot on the US Team was like winning the lottery for them. :)
 
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TS
W

wolcoma

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In terms of playing a sport in college and academics, you can definitely do both. I actually played two sports in college including ski racing (NCAA DII) and I was a "walk-on" in both sports, and trust me I was not exactly a "natural athlete". I was in the back to mid seeds for much of college and didn't see the field until my junior year in the other sport. Yes it was tough balancing academics and athletics but it was definitely worth it. While my fraternity brothers were drinking beer, I was going to practice or ski training, and it definitely felt great to be in such good shape. All three of my kids ski raced in college for a strong USCSA program and yes it was a lot of traveling back and forth for training, races, etc. but they all had a blast and earned very good grades.

I don't mean to pick on the ski academies, as a part-time club coach I have had dozens of kids go onto to ski for Burke, GMVS, MMSC, etc. However, I always tell the parents the only reason to attend a ski academy is if you're winning all the USSA races at say the U14 or U16 level and have a really good chance of making either the USST or NCAA DI program, and they're offering some financial assistance if needed, then go the academy route. Otherwise stay with your home club and race USSA and high school which is a lot more fun than being 10 seconds out of a FIS race. It's crazy in the East we have 16-17 year old boys and girls racing against FIS college and elite racers in their twenties. For example, my nephew is a freshman lacrosse player for a top NCAA college program who scored over 60 goals and 30 assists in high school last year and his coaches are encouraging him to red-shirt this season so he can lift and get stronger. Fortunately he's in a five year program at the school so the red-shirt program is not costing him anything extra. That's the reality of high school and college athletics in most sports, but in ski racing these ski academies are throwing most kids into FIS racing when they are not even close to being ready.
 

Mark1975

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So that $50 includes equipment and travel expenses (e.g. lodging, meals)? Methinks that's not the all-inclusive price per season.
It is through the local public school. The only travel would be getting on a school owed bus and traveling to another close by public school. In my local public school system, all high school varsity sports, band, cheerleading etc. costs are completely picked up by the regional school district for students. I honestly don't know what $50 charge he stated would even be for. Maybe offset the use of a district owned bus for away games?
 

Mark1975

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This could mean giving up on a dream class, highly curtailing social activities, adhering to a nonstandard sleep schedule, and so forth.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(An exception to this: Keely Kelleher's Camp for Girls has a lot of focus on fundamentals and free skiing development before they set any gates. Kudos to her for making this a workable model outside of an internal team structure.)
I get what you are saying, but in this guy's daughter's case, giving up an engineering career for ski racing would be beyond stupid. Besides, many (most) engineering majors already have curtailed social activities and adhere to a non-standard sleep schedule just to survive their insane course load. They have to fit academics, lab time, design projects and often internships and/or co-ops into their schedule. Add in travel time to a ski area for weekday training, and you can see why this often becomes impossible to manage.

I also get in her case, you sometimes have to make a painful decision on what is best for your future.

I am very familiar with Keely Kelleher's Camp for Girls. It is an excellent program that focuses on fundamentals. Too many programs have de-evolved into just running gates with very limited useful feedback to actually improve what the real problem is: lack of fundamentals. You are never going to fix that by running more gates.
 

Andy Mink

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While the content re: getting kids into racing, cost, etc. is a great discussion let's get this thread back to Miss Shiffrin. There are other threads in the forum that touch on all those topics or someone can start a new one.

Thanks!
 

James

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While the content re: getting kids into racing, cost, etc. is a great discussion let's get this thread back to Miss Shiffrin. There are other threads in the forum that touch on all those topics or someone can start a new one.

Thanks!

Probably should just move from post #2400 on.
Maybe here-
 

ijetwatson

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So that $50 includes equipment and travel expenses (e.g. lodging, meals)? Methinks that's not the all-inclusive price per season.

But yes, ski racing is too expensive on the whole. There are a lot of costs that are inflated, not the least of the guilty parties being smaller market clubs and teams that charge top dollar for their events because they're trying to fundraise via their races.

That said: being a ski racer (and especially being one in the U.S.) is an exercise in critical thinking and decision making, as well as time budgeting. Those who pursue it in high school and college are often tasked with sacrificing certain things in order to keep racing. This could mean giving up on a dream class, highly curtailing social activities, adhering to a nonstandard sleep schedule, and so forth. It is a great teacher for life, though: you learn how to weigh pros and cons, how to plan, and how to sacrifice in order to achieve a long-term goal. These are skills I owe to ski racing - and I'm sure there are others who followed their extracurricular passions and have seen similar outcomes.

The cost is absurd. The "arms race" of needing new equipment every season (or the perception that this needs to happen) is beyond the pale. The various bits and bobs of tuning equipment, clothing, armor, wax, you name it: they all add up and in the great majority of cases they're unnecessary to replace on the regular. I applaud the racing families who've discovered that a $300 pair of racing gloves is less useful than a $25 pair of Kinco mittens (yes, even for racing - use your pole guards, folks!). There are a slew of hacks in this regard that work, but they're not always publicized.

And in terms of all the on-snow training it's a mixed bag. Quality will always beat quantity, but there's also something to be said for having enough volume of well-run training under your feet before competition. The main problem here is that all too many summer ski racing camps have the athletes bashing gates again and again with only minimal work on technical problems - something that summer/off-season training is most suited to accomplish.

While quite a few coaches (and more athletes than would care to admit in mixed company) would rather these camps be weighted toward drills and technical development, the parents often say "we're paying a lot for this camp so my kid had better be running TONS of gates!" And the coaches are often dealing with too many athletes at once (especially at the "all-purpose" camps) so that kind of attention to detail simply doesn't happen. Unless the camps are run directly by teams that have a 24/7/365 continuity of pedagogy, the camp "businesses" hew toward "all gates, all the time" because it brings in the bucks and allows the camps to continue from year to year.

(An exception to this: Keely Kelleher's Camp for Girls has a lot of focus on fundamentals and free skiing development before they set any gates. Kudos to her for making this a workable model outside of an internal team structure.)

And yes, skiing in general is becoming too expensive. If you buy a conglomerate season pass below market rate that saves a little cash but there are still quite a few other expenses: travel (airfare, transportation from airport to resort, food, lodging, etc.), ski equipment, et al. It's venture a guess that most on this site have the means to make this happen every year. Adding in the additional expense of racing and, well, it gets absurd.

As I often tell people: if not for my coaching alpine ski racing I'd likely not be able to afford the sport, or at the very least I'd only be skiing a handful of days each season. I'd probably pivot to XC skiing or just ride my bicycles year-round.
From my experience, ski racing can indeed be expensive, especially in the U.S. There are various costs associated with the sport, and smaller market clubs and teams sometimes charge high prices for their events to raise funds. Pursuing ski racing often requires critical thinking and decision-making skills, as well as sacrifices in terms of time and other activities. While it can be a great teacher for life, the cost of ski racing, including the need for new equipment every season, can be absurd. Some families have found more cost-effective alternatives to expensive gear.
 
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TS
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wolcoma

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Here is Peter Dodge (Dartmouth) with a great way to expand NCAA racing. If we're going to use FIS points for seeding, utilizing an A and B division would allow racers more time to develop their FIS point profile in college. So for example, if Brown University or Castleton were to return to NCAA racing in a B division, this would give the coaches time to develop top college racers over four years and if they win their division, then allow their team to move up to the A Division or at least have their top 15 skiers qualify for the EISA championships. Those not qualifying would have their own season championships. Although I think realistically we would need more than five NCAA B teams. Right off the bat I am thinking of top USCSA programs like Brown, Castleton, Clarkson, Babson, Cornell, Colgate, then combine them with Colby-Sawyer, Plymouth State, Boston College, etc.

Create A and B divisions in the EISA Alpine system​

We need to increase the number of institutions competing in NCAA skiing and increase the opportunities for skiers to compete collegiately at this level. The challenge in alpine is that there is a limit on the field size that can be managed in a ski race. Most agree that a total field size of about 100 participants is ideal for an alpine competition. With 13 alpine teams in the EISA and six skiers per team, plus national and foreign entries required by FIS rules, we see combined men’s and women’s field sizes of up to 190 competitors per day.

One approach to solve this problem is to create additional conferences. There are currently two conferences in alpine: the EISA is the Eastern NCAA region and the RMISA is the Western NCAA region. However, creating other conferences would require the transfer of NCAA allocations from the current conferences, reducing the NCAA Championship spots currently allocated to each region and weakening the quality of the championship field.

EISA Alpine’s solution is to return to a structure that existed up to 1993. At that time, the EISA consisted of A and B Divisions. The A Division would be composed of, at most, 10 alpine teams. With six entries per team, this would produce a total combined race day field size of about 140 athletes.

To create the B Division, the three lowest-ranked teams from the current EISA would join with new teams looking to move to NCAA competition. Five teams would be sufficient to create the new B Division. Each season the 1 or 2 teams finishing the season at the bottom of the A Division would be relegated to the B Division and the top 1-2 teams from the B Division would be promoted. This would create great competition at all levels of both leagues. The NCAA Championship allocations would be assigned to the A Division as they are in the EISA today. The top 15 individuals for the B Division would be able to enter the NCAA Eastern Regional Qualifier to compete for spots in the NCAA Championships.
 

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