Neck pain from mountain biking

[breck]

Reporting back for anyone that comes across this.

Got over to a serious bike shop. I didn't do a formal fit but the casual assessment is that the bike is too small. Have a Trek Manta large, apparently I need an XL. Being 6' 2" is in the XL and I need to get an appropriate frame before doing much else. That will be a spring project.

thanks all for the feedback.

 

[Philpug]

Helmet? I was getting a lot of neck fatique when I had a heavy helmet.

 

[cantunamunch]

Reporting back for anyone that comes across this.

Got over to a serious bike shop. I didn't do a formal fit but the casual assessment is that the bike is too small. Have a Trek Manta large, apparently I need an XL. Being 6' 2" is in the XL and I need to get an appropriate frame before doing much else. That will be a spring project.

thanks all for the feedback.

Write down the reach numbers and the geometry on the bike you have and start your own tracking spreadsheet. This is bound to come back up in the future as you continue in the sport.

PS use a tape measure, don't just take a website's word for it.

 

[breck]

Helmet? I was getting a lot of neck fatique when I had a heavy helmet.

Foam, mostly holes helmet--light but I have a very big brain that apparently functions more as ballast than processing power that allowed me to put my air pump in a backpack messing with my head sometimes.

Working on technique a bit too.... we will see how the future rides go.

 

[breck]

Write down the reach numbers and the geometry on the bike you have and start your own tracking spreadsheet. This is bound to come back up in the future as you continue in the sport.

PS use a tape measure, don't just take a website's word for it.

Yikes! I really feel like I am running roughshod over very dimensionally complex issues.

I was starting to do a follow up: "Pointers on how to measure reach, what is the geometry of the bike?"

But went and did a search and lo we have: https://www.mountainbikenut.com/bike-reach-calculator/

The URL for the benefit of anyone coming across this later.

thanks all for the info folks,

 

[Tom K.]

In addition to the good stuff above, how is your helmet visor?

If you have one, and it's too low, that may be requiring you to crane your neck to see down the trail?

Easy experiment is to take the thing off and see how it goes.

 

[Rod9301]

Helmet? I was getting a lot of neck fatique when I had a heavy helmet.

Strengthen the neck muscles

 

[Slim]

Hi @breck , I am a Master Bikefitter (coincidencentally trained by Andy Pruitt who @martyg might be referring too) with a love of mountainbiking (historically bike fit has focused on seated (road) riding). I am also a tall guy (6’5”), so I think I can speak from experience about this issue.
I will discuss some comments you and other made on here, most of which I entirely agree with.

You mentioned seeing a doctor. If any bike fitter ever tells you not to see a doctor, slap them on the side of the head and run out. We are not physicIans. You might have medical issues we need to know about.
That said, fatigue, leading to soreness, of the neck, is most likely caused by your bike fit, so that is where you need to resolve it.
For a low torso position on a road bike or competitive XC mtb, some degree of looking up is unavoidable, but for a normal ‘trail’ mtb, this is not the case.

It sounds like you were already working on this, but here goes:
The number one cause I see for this is the rider arcing their spine, bending forward and down with the spine to reach the handlebars. Imagine a fishing rod reeling in a big one.
Instead, what we want is to rotate the pelvis, ’closing the hips’ so that your spine stays in its neutral shape. Imaging a book closing.
If you do this, your shoulders will come forward and down towards the bars, but the angle of your upper back stays much more upright, so you don’t have to pull your neck back as far.

Besides knowing to do this, the biggest impediment to this is improper saddle choice. In order to be able to tip the pelvis forward, you must be on a saddle that is wide enough and firm enough, and shaped properly, to support your weight on the sit bones (Ischial tuberosities, the bony bump you feel in the middle of your butt cheek).
And, the saddle needs to have minimal pressure on the nose of the saddle.

The vast majority of stock saddles do not function like this. This causes you to (subconsciously) tilt the pelvis back, to reduce pressure on soft tissue.

I have had the most succes with the Specialized Power saddles. Many of the Ergon models seem good too, as do the new Bontragers, but I have no experience with them.

Frame size:
As a rule of thumb:
6’4” > XXL
6’2” > XL
6’ > L
5’9” M

However, modern mtb’s have been changing dimensions the last few years. so instead, look at actual stack and reach (length and height of a bike frame), because one L might be the same as another XXL.

geometrygeeks.bike allows you to select just about any commercial bike and compare stack and reach, as well as a ton of other dimensions.

The problem tall riders face, is that the frames are invariably too low.
Set your saddle height by using the ‘heel on pedal’ method. This has been shown to be the most accurate method short of actual measurement while pedaling under load.

Now, look at the bike from the side. A good starting point for tall riders is to have the grips just slightly lower than the saddle. This almost always involves raising the grips. A riser bar with more rise, (stock tends to be around 20mm, you can get up to 80mm rise bars) and a stem with some rise will help. Beware that many high rise stems are not meant/rated for mtb use!

 

[skibob]

Reporting back for anyone that comes across this.

Got over to a serious bike shop. I didn't do a formal fit but the casual assessment is that the bike is too small. Have a Trek Manta large, apparently I need an XL. Being 6' 2" is in the XL and I need to get an appropriate frame before doing much else. That will be a spring project.

thanks all for the feedback.

I personally would see if you can rent something before buying a larger bike based on height. There are a lot more factors that go into a good bike fit than just that. Get to know the measurements called reach and stack. Then road test or rent bikes with varying dimensions that seem like they will fit you.

If the reach of your current bike really is too short for you, neck problems would come from being hunched over the bars. Looking up would put your neck at an unnatural angle. If reach is too long for you, neck problems would come from being stretched out too far and thus having to raise your head too much to get an adequate view ahead.

If for some reason a true professional bike fit is off the table for you, I would do this^^^. But I would never, ever, choose a bike because of height alone.

Another way to educate yourself is to learn what "bike inseam" is and measure it. No, it is not the number on your pants.

Even when reach and stack are right, there is a lot of little work that goes in to getting a good fit that involves pedals, seats, seat tubes, stems, and bars. I am fortunate to have two good fitting bikes. One that was nearly perfect from the factory and one I built myself. But over the years I've put a lot of work into the right fit.

 

[Slim]

Another way to educate yourself is to learn what "bike inseam" is and measure it. No, it is not the number on your pants.

Don’t measure inseam.
Here is a paper showing that better results for setting saddle height come from the heel backpedal method, than from inseam multiplication methods.

Really, the only true way to set saddle height accurately is measuring it with motion- or videoxcapture while pedaling. After all, we are often only adjusting saddle height by 5mm or less, while some people might have their heel 40mm higher than others!

Given that, I see no benefit of doing the awkward and inaccurate inseam measuring, when you get better results much easier with the heel backpedal method.

 

[Slim]

But went and did a search and lo we have: https://www.mountainbikenut.com/bike-reach-calculator/

The URL for the benefit of anyone coming across this later.

thanks all for the info folks,

Alert!
That drawing is wrong!

Reach is measured off the top of the headtube(frame part). In that drawing they are measuring it off the steerer(part of the fork).

 

[skibob]

Don’t measure inseam.
Here is a paper showing that better results for setting saddle height come from the heel backpedal method, than from inseam multiplication methods.

Really, the only true way to set saddle height accurately is measuring it with motion- or videoxcapture while pedaling. After all, we are often only adjusting saddle height by 5mm or less, while some people might have their heel 40mm higher than others!

Given that, I see no benefit of doing the awkward and inaccurate inseam measuring, when you get better results much easier with the heel backpedal method.

Agree. I was advocating measuring it for stack determination. Getting the right bike, not tweaking the fit. People's bike inseam varies considerably among people mol the same height. I've only ever set saddle height by riding and finding the right height by trial and error. It is important to remember that changing any other element of fit requires this to be repeated.

I generally do it by carrying a multi tool (if not QR) and constantly changing. Once I think I've found the right spot, I'll still ride a few miles at +2mm and -2mm just to make sure.

 

[breck]

Thanks again everyone for taking the time to comment. Responding en-mass for the quick answers...

f it provides any comfort (sorry), a lot of us think +/- 1 inch is huge, positively enormous and positively obsess over changes down to below 1/4"

20mm can feel like two completely different bikes.. Especially in top tube.

Oh boy this sensitivity just makes it all seem impossible and overwhelming.

Can I get evaluated somehow and get a dimensionless number that describes the class of frames that would fit?

I was riding today on my L Trek Mamba and wanted it all closer in. The distance from handle bars to the seat seems too far and I feel too stretched out. I like my wife's M Manta better. I like small things that I some how stuff my 6' 2" into, drive a '91 miata, fly coach etc...

In addition to the good stuff above, how is your helmet visor?

If you have one, and it's too low, that may be requiring you to crane your neck to see down the trail?

Easy experiment is to take the thing off and see how it goes.

No visor.

Thanks for the comments.

 

[breck]

Hi @breck , I am a Master Bikefitter (coincidencentally trained by Andy Pruitt who @martyg might be referring too) with a love of mountainbiking (historically bike fit has focused on seated (road) riding). I am also a tall guy (6’5”), so I think I can speak from experience about this issue.
I will discuss some comments you and other made on here, most of which I entirely agree with.

You mentioned seeing a doctor. If any bike fitter ever tells you not to see a doctor, slap them on the side of the head and run out. We are not physicIans. You might have medical issues we need to know about.

If it gets bad again I am going to get evaluated. I seriously had a moment worried about encephalitis since it was hurting pretty bad and required pain meds but no fever.

That said, fatigue, leading to soreness, of the neck, is most likely caused by your bike fit, so that is where you need to resolve it.
For a low torso position on a road bike or competitive XC mtb, some degree of looking up is unavoidable, but for a normal ‘trail’ mtb, this is not the case.

It sounds like you were already working on this, but here goes:
The number one cause I see for this is the rider arcing their spine, bending forward and down with the spine to reach the handlebars. Imagine a fishing rod reeling in a big one.
Instead, what we want is to rotate the pelvis, ’closing the hips’ so that your spine stays in its neutral shape. Imaging a book closing.
If you do this, your shoulders will come forward and down towards the bars, but the angle of your upper back stays much more upright, so you don’t have to pull your neck back as far.

This exactly is what I was doing, 20lb fish on 8lb gear emulation. Trying to keep the spine un-hunched or what feels straight and not loading the hands.
When just riding on easy stuff I am happiest with my finger tips on the grips. I think this is telling. My wife's medium Trek Manta feels better because I am not reaching so much.

Besides knowing to do this, the biggest impediment to this is improper saddle choice. In order to be able to tip the pelvis forward, you must be on a saddle that is wide enough and firm enough, and shaped properly, to support your weight on the sit bones (Ischial tuberosities, the bony bump you feel in the middle of your butt cheek).
And, the saddle needs to have minimal pressure on the nose of the saddle.

Saddle is bent, bike shop gent pointed it out, I'll look into the Specialized Power saddles.

The vast majority of stock saddles do not function like this. This causes you to (subconsciously) tilt the pelvis back, to reduce pressure on soft tissue.

My saddle, bent, just sort of sucks and my 'soft tissue', is not very happy at all. I am riding with armored undies now that have a bit of padding (https://na.pocsports.com/products/hip-vpd-2-0-shorts?variant=35505845633190) out of excessive paranoia.

I have had the most succes with the Specialized Power saddles. Many of the Ergon models seem good too, as do the new Bontragers, but I have no experience with them.

Frame size:
As a rule of thumb:
6’4” > XXL
6’2” > XL
6’ > L
5’9” M

However, modern mtb’s have been changing dimensions the last few years. so instead, look at actual stack and reach (length and height of a bike frame), because one L might be the same as another XXL.

geometrygeeks.bike allows you to select just about any commercial bike and compare stack and reach, as well as a ton of other dimensions.

The problem tall riders face, is that the frames are invariably too low.
Set your saddle height by using the ‘heel on pedal’ method. This has been shown to be the most accurate method short of actual measurement while pedaling under load.

Will do.

Now, look at the bike from the side. A good starting point for tall riders is to have the grips just slightly lower than the saddle. This almost always involves raising the grips. A riser bar with more rise, (stock tends to be around 20mm, you can get up to 80mm rise bars) and a stem with some rise will help. Beware that many high rise stems are not meant/rated for mtb use!

I'll have a go at your advice and thanks.