Need advice on a Race Fit plug boot

[ScottB]

I went for a boot fitting session yesterday and came away frustrated and confused. I was trying on "plug" Atomic race boots, the Redster Club Sport and Redster WC models. The shop did not have the new Redster Team Issue model that replaces the WC model. I was put in a 28.5 shell. They did not have any 29.5 shells to try on, which is the size boot I am in now. My toes were crushed in this size shell, both lengthwise and sideways. To get right to it, how much toe room will heat molding and boot work gain in a boot that is crushing my toes. I could walk in them, but needed to get them off my feet after 5-10 minutes. Flexing the boot did not change the toe pressure much.

I have owned boots where just my big toe would hit the end of the boot, and the rest were OK. That I expect boot work would solve. Light pressure on toes I would expect boot work to solve and heat molding would give more width. My opinion is the 28.5 boot is just too short for my foot and toe shapes and I should just go longer (none to try on to find out), but I don't have a good sense of what heating and boot work can do, so I could use some advice from someone who has been through a race fit bootfitting.

OK, all the details are below, but bottom line was the bootfitter did not give me confidence that I would be happy with the toe fit when work was completed. He said all we can do it get 5cm more length. He did say this is what a race fit is like. I told him I couldn't ski in these without significantly more room in toes. We did agree that the 29.5 would have more toe room, but more shell width, which might need a custom liner to keep snug. NO 29.5's to try on, so out of luck and no decision made on what to buy after driving 2.5 hrs one way.

Pertinent info from the fitting:

Atomic sizing/measurement board:
left foot measured 30.0 long, 95 mm wide
right foot measured 29.5 long, 95 mm wide (I can add a picture of my feet if it would help)

Shell fit: (28.5)
Less than 1 finger on left foot (0.8 fingers)
slightly more than 1 finger on right foot (1.2 fingers)

Fitter said that is the correct shell size for "race fit"

When standing in Club Sport shell, no liner or foot bed, side of foot was painful around metatarsil bone, pain went away with liner and foot bed in shell. In WC shell, pain on both sides of foot with no shell or foot bed.

The WC had the least toe crush, rest of foot was fine. Figured out it had the thinnest liner and least padded heel pocket, so foot was a little farther back. Toes still crushed, but not as much. Stiffness of the boot was to much for me. (130 rated boot)

CS had lots of heel pocket padding and probably shoved my foot further forward. Fitter offered to heat mold liner to help that, I said no until I commit to buy. Stiffness of book was OK for me. I like this boot overall very much.

 

[Mike King]

I'm not a boot fitter, but my understanding is that if it is a plug boot, no heat molding will work. It's all grinding. And you'd not expect to put on a plug boot without grinding and find it to be close to comfortable as material has to be removed to sculpt it to your foot. Finally, this is not a process that tends to get it right with a single session -- it usually requires several visits with skiing to find issues in the interim.

That's a large part of the reason I'm not in a plug boot, but rather a race boot with a bit more option to get the fit right.

Mike

 

[Philpug]

Paging @onenerdykid to the Pugski Courtesy Phone.

 

[ScottB]

I'm not a boot fitter, but my understanding is that if it is a plug boot, no heat molding will work. It's all grinding. And you'd not expect to put on a plug boot without grinding and find it to be close to comfortable as material has to be removed to sculpt it to your foot. Finally, this is not a process that tends to get it right with a single session -- it usually requires several visits with skiing to find issues in the interim.

That's a large part of the reason I'm not in a plug boot, but rather a race boot with a bit more option to get the fit right.

Mike

Thanks for the reply. For the Atomic plug boots, they have added something to the plastic and they are heat moldable using the process on their recreational boots. Its probably not as moldable as the recreational boots, but its recommended. The width of the boot is what bothers most people, but with my 95mm wide foot, I don't need any width grinding work. Will have to judge that after skiing in them, but no problems in the store. That is NOT the norm for most people. My issue is length, and when I go into a longer shell it gets wider, so it may become too loose. The shell size with the proper width is short. How short is too short ?? I don't race, just coach it, so I want a boot I can ski in all day. The 29.5 shell gives me that, not sure if a "worked" 28.5 can get me there??

If someone said "OH, my toes are always crushed until they stretch the liner and the boot, then I would feel better about committing to the smaller shell. If some says, if your toes are lightly touching, that can be cured, but if they are crushed, its too small, then I go with the longer shell. Seems like the safe choice is the longer shell. I hate pain now that I am 49+.

 

[Wendy]

Thanks for the reply. For the Atomic plug boots, they have added something to the plastic and they are heat moldable using the process on their recreational boots. Its probably not as moldable as the recreational boots, but its recommended. The width of the boot is what bothers most people, but with my 95mm wide foot, I don't need any width grinding work. Will have to judge that after skiing in them, but no problems in the store. That is NOT the norm for most people. My issue is length, and when I go into a longer shell it gets wider, so it may become too loose. The shell size with the proper width is short. How short is too short ?? I don't race, just coach it, so I want a boot I can ski in all day. The 29.5 shell gives me that, not sure if a "worked" 28.5 can get me there??

If someone said "OH, my toes are always crushed until they stretch the liner and the boot, then I would feel better about committing to the smaller shell. If some says, if your toes are lightly touching, that can be cured, but if they are crushed, its too small, then I go with the longer shell. Seems like the safe choice is the longer shell. I hate pain now that I am 49+.

Crushed toes = cold toes.

 

[Philpug]

I am going to lock this thread until @onenerdykid is online to answer. ONK, PM me when you you see this

 

[onenerdykid]

I reached out to Scott via PM, but thought an answer here might help out as well.

A size 30 foot in a 28 boot is not a "no-go" but it is definitely a fit that shouldn't be comfy right out of the box. Boots in this category are purposely built with lots of stretching and grinding in mind, so in the hands of a competent fitter, getting this type of boot to fit is very possible. It's honestly quite impossible to say online with 100% certainty if it will work for you since we can't see your feet and we aren't the ones doing the boot work, but again, it should be totally within reach normally. I would add that these fits can be on the colder side sometimes so if you have any circulation issues or know that you absolutely can't stand being cold in ski boots, then perhaps this might not be the ideal route. But, again, it's really hard to say with certainty and you know your feet & warmth needs better than me. My immediate reaction is don't pull the trigger until you can put your foot into a 29 and you can compare the two. You might find this to be a better starting point, or you might say it's too sloppy. Either way, it will give you another data point so you can make the most informed decision possible.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes.

 

[Noodler]

@ScottB - as ONK already stated, based on your "raw" foot length measurement, a 28 shell is not only within the realm of possibility, but it is more typical for skiers that choose this type of boot. Going down 2 (sometimes 3) shells sizes is the norm for higher end race and plug boots. My feet measure 27.5 and I ski in a 25.5.

It is often pointed out that a good footbed will act to shorten the effective length of your foot. You didn't state whether you used a good custom footbed in your fitting. If not, this is another consideration for you.

Also, I have previously posted about modifications to the bootboard to put your foot into the optimal vertical position in a shell. All shells are widest and longest at a specific vertical position on the shell. If the bootboard seats your foot too high or too low in the shell, you will not be in the optimal position where the shell may better match your foot. If you want more info on this I can dig up one of my posts about the process to make this determination.

New liners also will position your feet further forward in the shell until they're broken in. I always advise that skiers ignore the liner when it's new as it can lead you astray. Also, it may be possible that the liner is short-lasted, meaning it is significantly shorter than the shell length. There are liner modifications or replacement liners that can remedy that situation.

Finally, keep in mind that the toe box is often referenced as the easiest place on the boot to make modifications. Many skiers make the mistake of fitting a shell to make their toes happy, when the most important fit concerns when it comes to skiing are the control surfaces around the mid-foot, instep, ankle, and heel. Do not "compromise" on the fit in those areas to make your toes happy.

 

[ScottB]

Noodler, thanks so much for the excellent advice. My comments in black.

"Noodler", post:
as ONK already stated, based on your "raw" foot length measurement, a 28 shell is not only within the realm of possibility, but it is more typical for skiers that choose this type of boot. Going down 2 (sometimes 3) shells sizes is the norm for higher end race and plug boots. My feet measure 27.5 and I ski in a 25.5.

It is often pointed out that a good footbed will act to shorten the effective length of your foot. You didn't state whether you used a good custom footbed in your fitting. If not, this is another consideration for you.

I use a consumer downunder footbed, not custom. Very good suggestion. Just inserting my footbed raised my foot up and alleviated any side pressure around the 5th metatarsal area. Didn't do much for toe room, but I see how it could. I will have one made.

Also, I have previously posted about modifications to the bootboard to put your foot into the optimal vertical position in a shell. All shells are widest and longest at a specific vertical position on the shell. If the bootboard seats your foot too high or too low in the shell, you will not be in the optimal position where the shell may better match your foot. If you want more info on this I can dig up one of my posts about the process to make this determination.

If you have a link, or could repost, I would appreciate it.

New liners also will position your feet further forward in the shell until they're broken in. I always advise that skiers ignore the liner when it's new as it can lead you astray. Also, it may be possible that the liner is short-lasted, meaning it is significantly shorter than the shell length. There are liner modifications or replacement liners that can remedy that situation.

Totally proved this out in my fitting session. I tried 4 different liners. A new Mimic liner, stock Club Sport liner, new Zip Fit Gara liner, and WC liner. The boot fitter teased me saying "you building your own boot now" I determined the stock liner was not shorter that the shell length, I was hitting the end of the boot. I tried different size liners (28 and 29) and no liner. I have run into short liners with other boots I owned and actually cut a slit in the end to open them up. (better approach is heat stretch them, warmer)

Finally, keep in mind that the toe box is often referenced as the easiest place on the boot to make modifications. Many skiers make the mistake of fitting a shell to make their toes happy, when the most important fit concerns when it comes to skiing are the control surfaces around the mid-foot, instep, ankle, and heel. Do not "compromise" on the fit in those areas to make your toes happy.

I guess that is what is motivating me to attempt a race fit in this type of boot. I don't actively race, so after thinking through it all, here is where I am. A skier has two boot variables (actually more, but lets keep it simple and ignore last shape and others) shell size and last width. As shells get longer, last width goes up. When you go from one specific boot model to another, width changes. I picked Atomic because they are one of the best brands for offering different widths in the same "category" boot. They have recreational wide, medium, and narrow. Then you go consumer race boot (slightly narrower than narrow consumer recreational boot) and finally WC plug race boot as the narrowest. To get a snug fit around the control surfaces you don't have to have a less than one finger shell fit and all the work that comes with that, just go up one shell size and if needed change to the next narrower boot model. A high end recreational boot model or a race plug model both work for me in general if the fit is good. I will soften the race boot if needed, but I like a 130 flex which race boots are made in.

With all of the last width options on the market today, I question why would anyone want a "race fit" (unless racing gates and not spending all day in your boots) when they can go up in size and down in width to achieve the same fit around the control surfaces ?? Depending on your foot width and shape, you still might need some work. I have greatly oversimplified things, and the devil is in the details of course, but I think this will be my game plan. Stay in the 29 size I am in now for adequate length and figure out how narrow a boot I need to get a snug fit on the control surfaces. I know a recreational narrow race boot is too wide, so Atomic has a Club Sport and a WC race boot to evaluate. I officially give up on a 28 shell for me, even though I now believe it can be made to work as long as I am willing to live with less than perfect comfort.

As a final comment to anyone reading this, I have a long narrow foot, and I am a clyde so I can handle (actually need) the stiffer flex boots. If you have a wide foot and need a soft flex you are at the opposite end of the spectrum, but you might be better off. By that I mean you will need to fit your control surfaces by width and your boot length may be longer than needed, but that is perfectly fine as long as your not excessively long. My son has a very wide foot and he is in one size larger shell than he needs to get enough width. He also had to have padding removed in the lower tongue to give him enough instep height. With those two adjustments he is very happy with his boot fit. Wide feet that are unusually shaped will require punches, ect.. but allowing for that and getting the right fit around the control surfaces is the goal. Heat molding is another great feature for wide feet and irregularly shaped feet. For my narrow foot, heat molding a shell can only loosen the fit and I usually avoid it unless I have a tight area.

 

[Noodler]

Noodler, thanks so much for the excellent advice. My comments in black.

"Noodler", post:
as ONK already stated, based on your "raw" foot length measurement, a 28 shell is not only within the realm of possibility, but it is more typical for skiers that choose this type of boot. Going down 2 (sometimes 3) shells sizes is the norm for higher end race and plug boots. My feet measure 27.5 and I ski in a 25.5.

It is often pointed out that a good footbed will act to shorten the effective length of your foot. You didn't state whether you used a good custom footbed in your fitting. If not, this is another consideration for you.

I use a consumer downunder footbed, not custom. Very good suggestion. Just inserting my footbed raised my foot up and alleviated any side pressure around the 5th metatarsal area. Didn't do much for toe room, but I see how it could. I will have one made.

Also, I have previously posted about modifications to the bootboard to put your foot into the optimal vertical position in a shell. All shells are widest and longest at a specific vertical position on the shell. If the bootboard seats your foot too high or too low in the shell, you will not be in the optimal position where the shell may better match your foot. If you want more info on this I can dig up one of my posts about the process to make this determination.

If you have a link, or could repost, I would appreciate it.

New liners also will position your feet further forward in the shell until they're broken in. I always advise that skiers ignore the liner when it's new as it can lead you astray. Also, it may be possible that the liner is short-lasted, meaning it is significantly shorter than the shell length. There are liner modifications or replacement liners that can remedy that situation.

Totally proved this out in my fitting session. I tried 4 different liners. A new Mimic liner, stock Club Sport liner, new Zip Fit Gara liner, and WC liner. The boot fitter teased me saying "you building your own boot now" I determined the stock liner was not shorter that the shell length, I was hitting the end of the boot. I tried different size liners (28 and 29) and no liner. I have run into short liners with other boots I owned and actually cut a slit in the end to open them up. (better approach is heat stretch them, warmer)

Finally, keep in mind that the toe box is often referenced as the easiest place on the boot to make modifications. Many skiers make the mistake of fitting a shell to make their toes happy, when the most important fit concerns when it comes to skiing are the control surfaces around the mid-foot, instep, ankle, and heel. Do not "compromise" on the fit in those areas to make your toes happy.

I guess that is what is motivating me to attempt a race fit in this type of boot. I don't actively race, so after thinking through it all, here is where I am. A skier has two boot variables (actually more, but lets keep it simple and ignore last shape and others) shell size and last width. As shells get longer, last width goes up. When you go from one specific boot model to another, width changes. I picked Atomic because they are one of the best brands for offering different widths in the same "category" boot. They have recreational wide, medium, and narrow. Then you go consumer race boot (slightly narrower than narrow consumer recreational boot) and finally WC plug race boot as the narrowest. To get a snug fit around the control surfaces you don't have to have a less than one finger shell fit and all the work that comes with that, just go up one shell size and if needed change to the next narrower boot model. A high end recreational boot model or a race plug model both work for me in general if the fit is good. I will soften the race boot if needed, but I like a 130 flex which race boots are made in.

With all of the last width options on the market today, I question why would anyone want a "race fit" (unless racing gates and not spending all day in your boots) when they can go up in size and down in width to achieve the same fit around the control surfaces ?? Depending on your foot width and shape, you still might need some work. I have greatly oversimplified things, and the devil is in the details of course, but I think this will be my game plan. Stay in the 29 size I am in now for adequate length and figure out how narrow a boot I need to get a snug fit on the control surfaces. I know a recreational narrow race boot is too wide, so Atomic has a Club Sport and a WC race boot to evaluate. I officially give up on a 28 shell for me, even though I now believe it can be made to work as long as I am willing to live with less than perfect comfort.

As a final comment to anyone reading this, I have a long narrow foot, and I am a clyde so I can handle (actually need) the stiffer flex boots. If you have a wide foot and need a soft flex you are at the opposite end of the spectrum, but you might be better off. By that I mean you will need to fit your control surfaces by width and your boot length may be longer than needed, but that is perfectly fine as long as your not excessively long. My son has a very wide foot and he is in one size larger shell than he needs to get enough width. He also had to have padding removed in the lower tongue to give him enough instep height. With those two adjustments he is very happy with his boot fit. Wide feet that are unusually shaped will require punches, ect.. but allowing for that and getting the right fit around the control surfaces is the goal. Heat molding is another great feature for wide feet and irregularly shaped feet. For my narrow foot, heat molding a shell can only loosen the fit and I usually avoid it unless I have a tight area.

I would say that you clearly understand the issues and variables at play for your boot fit. At this point it all defaults back to "if the boot fits" and specific suggestions for models that generally work better for long narrow feet. That said, I have found that a common toe box shape is a shell characteristic across models within a single manufacturer. For example, it's why I generally will fit into a Head boot better than a Fischer due to my short "flat" toes. I have been able to avoid toe box mods by choosing shell shapes that better match my feet from the get-go.

As far as the vertical position issue procedure, basically you just need to remove the bootboard and place your bare foot into the shell (no liner). Position your foot vertically where you feel the shell is widest and longest. Put the bootboard back in the shell and then do the test again and see if you're able to get your foot back into that same position. If the bootboard is blocking you from getting low enough into the optimal position then it's possible that it is too high/thick and a reduction of the bootboard can improve the fit. This test should be done also when including your footbed since its height/thickness can also put your foot too "high" in the shell. The bottom of your liner can also push your foot higher if it's significantly thick. Of course any "lowering" of your foot position in the shell may impact the fit/position of the heel/ankles and move your instep away from the roof of lower shell. These fit factors must all be considered when modifying any bootboard.

 

[ScottB]

I have found that a common toe box shape is a shell characteristic across models within a single manufacturer. For example, it's why I generally will fit into a Head boot better than a Fischer due to my short "flat" toes. I have been able to avoid toe box mods by choosing shell shapes that better match my feet from the get-go.

Very good point Noodler. Toe box shape becomes much more important the closer to a "race fit" you are getting. Last night I put my foot into my current (old) Lange RS140 and then into my other boots, Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD (hybrid AT boots), both 29.5 shells (comfort fit). The room in the toes was much better in the Langes. It had a much more blunt, roomy toe box shape. The Atomic was much "pointier" and less roomy. The toe shape in the Atomic race boots I tried on was similarly pointy and less roomy. Even though my foot is narrow, the wider toe box feels much more comfortable, and not excessively wide. I think the shape/width of the liner around the toes is a factor as well. That can be stretched and heat molded if needed. I think this explains my "race fit" boot fitting experience pretty well. Atomics have a narrower toe shape which in a tight shell fit boot causes side squeeze on the toes as well as length of boot pressure.

Interestingly, when I bought my Atomic XTDs, the only part of the 29.5 boot that was tight was the toe box and I went through the heat molding process to gain more room there. It worked, but the fitter suggested not to use the toe caps to get more room the first time, and to remold with the toe caps again if needed. I got just enough room from the first mold and stopped there Once I skied them, I want a remold with the toe caps to get a little more room for comfort and warmth.

 

[ScottB]

Lots of very good advice on boot fitting strategy by some knowledgeable people on this thread. I have found my boot so I will update this thread with the "results" and my memory was jogged and I remembered a story I will share that perfectly relates.

I found an Atomic Redster Club Sport boot in a 29.5 size (the larger size) online and bought it. The shop I went to said they could not get me one. I received it very quickly and have been wearing it around the house for a few days now. Yesterday I actually clicked it into some skis on my rug and did some "ski moves" to see what the boots felt like under some stress. The Result was "great". The Club Sport is not Atomic's plug boot, but a consumer race boot or something between a plug and a narrow fit recreational boot. It has a 96mm last (narrow rec. boot is 98mm) and similar construction to their plug race boots. In the 29.5 length my toes do not touch the end of the boot, close but not touching. The liner feels good and my longer foot is basically at the end of the liner, but it does not need to be stretched. The step down in last width from a narrow rec boot to this boot (98 to 96) was perfect to keep the fit snug around my control surfaces. This boot definitely fits snugger than my 29.5 Lange RS140's and if anything I might need one punch at the end of my metatarsal bone where its tight. I might heat mold the boot and liner, not sure yet what to do. I don't want the boot to loosen up elsewhere from the heat mold, so it might be better to do a local punch. I will discuss with a boot fitter.

I really like this boot and the stock liner that comes with it is pretty impressive as well. I have good toe room in this size boot. About the only negative is this boot is quite stiff. Its a "race" 130 flex and a burly boot. I softened my RS140 Lange and the Club Sport is a lot stiffer than my Lange. When seeing the boot fitter I will discuss softening the boot as well. Once softened and alleviating the tightness around my metatarsal I think this boot will work very well for me.

Now to my story. A few years ago, I went to see PJ Dewey in Vt, who is an expert boot fitter with clients who race on the WC circuit. He did a shell fit check on my 29.5 Lange RS140's that I owned and said, in that boot, I should drop down one shell size. (and I agree, mostly because it has a roomy fairly wide toe box). I asked to try it on, and he replied "We don't do try on's in my shop, I will put you in the right boot and make it work". OK...., when I asked why I couldn't try on the 28.5 to see how snug it feels, he said it will be too short and be painful on my toes and that is all I will remember. He said until he can work on the boot to make it long enough he doesn't want me trying it on. Hmmmmmm, I guess he knew what he was talking about. I also believe due to the roomy toe box in the Lange, versus the narrower Atomic, a 28.5 Lange RS130 could be stretched enough to work for my foot. That would have gotten me in a softer non-plug boot with hopefully a snug fit. I would have to change my bindings my skis due to boot sole length, although if I wasn't fussy about mount point, I am sure I could just adjust the heels to make it work.

So in summary, going narrower in width last and long enough in shell size seemed to work for me, although until I ski the new boots I can't be 100% certain. I found this on the Atomic website. It is how the last width of a ski boot changes with shell size.

Redster Club Sport | REDSTER CLUB SPORT 130 | Atomic.com USA

The Atomic Redster Club Sport 130 is our most powerful Club Sport – a ski boot born on the race course, built for the piste!

shop.atomic.com

 

[Don'tfit]

Redster Club Sport 130 is my daily boot, along with zipfit liners. They were made to be heated and fit up to 7mm as i recall.
I had excellent results with only one fitting session when I purchased them. They are a fantastic, responsive boot on the course or in the bumps. While they are stiff I do believe that their plastic formula is not quite as well suspended as the Dobermann's I had previously.

 

[cem]

i think the moral of this story is pretty key, if you see a really good boot fitter who works with race boots a lot then it is perfectly possible to get into the smaller boot shell and have it worked, most of the trouble is many boot fitters don't have ALL the tools to do that work (PJ was right, the smaller shell in that boot would have worked, but it is a big leap of faith, without seeing your foot in front of me i would never say if it was or not), i have a client who is a 29.5 on one foot and 28.8 on the other, he skis in a 27.5 redster WC with a zipfit liner, the toe box has been stretched a fair bit and the heel has been ground for his heel spur which in the past punched him forward in a boot and caused him to need a much bigger shell, i still have the possibility to grind the toe box as my emergency card in the back pocket if he needs a little more space, but i don't think we will need to

what this also shows up is peoples tolerance to compression varies from individual to individual

 

[Triplet]

i think the moral of this story is pretty key, if you see a really good boot fitter who works with race boots a lot then it is perfectly possible to get into the smaller boot shell and have it worked, most of the trouble is many boot fitters don't have ALL the tools to do that work (PJ was right, the smaller shell in that boot would have worked, but it is a big leap of faith, without seeing your foot in front of me i would never say if it was or not), i have a client who is a 29.5 on one foot and 28.8 on the other, he skis in a 27.5 redster WC with a zipfit liner, the toe box has been stretched a fair bit and the heel has been ground for his heel spur which in the past punched him forward in a boot and caused him to need a much bigger shell, i still have the possibility to grind the toe box as my emergency card in the back pocket if he needs a little more space, but i don't think we will need to

what this also shows up is peoples tolerance to compression varies from individual to individual

In this case, I am curious, what size Zipfits is this client in, if you remember? 27,5 as the boot or 28.5 which is closer to his feet in length?

 

[cem]

In this case, I am curious, what size Zipfits is this client in, if you remember? 27,5 as the boot or 28.5 which is closer to his feet in length?

from memory he is in the 27.5