Need technique/advice for skiing canyon/cliff type mogul formations in steep terrain

[WildBillD]

Agree.


Remember: the OP stated he is competent in black and blue moguls. We haven't seen them ski so we only have their word for it. Skiing 20-30 degree slope mogul runs cut by good mogul skiers with lots of line choices is a different kettle of fish than a 50+ degree slope with chaotic Volkswagen sized bumps. Same technique maybe, but different tactics. A lot of skiing the latter is about confidence in that terrain. Perfect practice always makes perfect.

and @Matt Merritt
"Regular bumps allow for multiple turning options. At any time the slier can choose between sliding down the backside, staying in the middle of the trough, or banking on the outside.

Monster, chaotic bumps such as @mdf perfectly displayed above, require the skier to ride the trough all the way around. Trying to scrub speed earlier will result in a turn directly into the near-vertical part of the bump. There's no option but to give it up to gravity until finally coming to the next fluffy flat spot. As mdf's photos show, almost every bump has a nice spot for a speed-killing hockey stop; you just need the confidence to keep your butterflies in check until you get there.

Keeping a good body position is necessary in nice bumps; in the really tough ones it's absolutely critical that the skier doesn't succumb to those natural - but disasterous - defensive upper body movements that we all know so well."

@Scruffy and @Matt Merritt nailed it- I am not talking about moguls on a 20 -30 degree pitch, but moguls with high walls, that form on 40+ degree slope, with deep troughs. I am looking for a tactic here on a specific mogul formation as typically found, on a steep western slopes of 40+ degree slopes. I typically ski east coast and I am familiar with Killington's terrain and hunter mountain's K27.

So far what I have heard is ski the toughs, and stay off the spines( where sidewalls are high -if you go too far up the spine, you will end up on the highest and sheerest sidewall drop into the trough - as in drop rather than slip or skid) , check speed on flattest part of spine before trough entry. Practice by starting off on flat part of mogul, steer into the trough, and strive for continuing the decent, by taking 2 consecutive moguls troughs, before stopping, then try for three, then 4, etc, until a comfort zone is reached.

And I think that those folks, who mentioned mileage in these type of moguls are spot on. I also agree that profciency on less difficult terrain is necessary before moving on to more difficult terrain.

 

[no edge]

This doesn't answer the OP's questions but no bump thread is complete without a link to the best, free, how to ski moguls instruction on the internet:

This has been a good discussion. One distinction would be helpful: are we talking a WC bumping or style and control bumping. When at Killington in the Spring there are many bump fanatics, even some competition mogul skiers - National Team members too. The largest make up of bumpers are hackers who hop from bump to bump.

When I read the OP I hear style, gracefulness, control and precision - as opposed to WC. World Cup bumpers are exceptional athletes. Attaining that level of skill is a long process with great coaching. In Fuller's vid, the discussion centers on specific skills needed to ski well in bumps.

 

[Seldomski]

@WildBillD do you have a picture of the bumps your are talking about? Hard for me to visualize.

When bumps get really large, I cut them into smaller pieces by throwing in extra turns on the tops, or moving where I land on the 'tops' to further down the bump. Moving the 'top' (mentally) to a different spot on the mogul can totally change the way they ski.

If they get snaggle toothed with little sharp noses I might go real slow and slide slip them to break the beaks so the run is better next time I ski it.

Sometimes the really big bumps form a staircase down and you can ski them very smoothly with a lot of lateral movement and somewhat uphill track at times. These are my favorite type of bumps that form on steeps. They are pretty common in areas with 'good skier' traffic.

And sometimes there are just plain awful bumps. These form where there hasn't been snow in a long time and lots of traffic by skiers who have poor bump skills. So you gotta suck it up and beat the bumps into a good shape or move somewhere else. These tend to form on blue and easier black pitches in the middle of the run. So moving to steeper runs or to the edges of the bad bump runs can actually be easier to ski.

 

[WildBillD]

@Seldomski

I do not have a recent picture of the bumps I am trying to ski, but these bumps at verbier - titled elephant sized bumps are the type I'm referencing.
Steep slope 40+, large bumps, almost vertical sidewalls between bumps and at end of bump.

Note I am not an extreme skier, I am not interested in WC mogul competition turns, I just want to understand the tactics, of skiing something like this, so I am not focusing on the wrong type of turn entry. I believe common sense says ski the trough line. I know - practice and mileage - but at some point you need to put on th big boy pants and go for it.

.

 

[crgildart]

Find the steepest terrain you can without bumps.. Practice hop turns down that, faster the better. You can do this on dry land as well off season, with poles..
Plant-Turn
Plant-Turn
Plant-Turn
Plant-Turn
Plant-Turn
Plant-Turn

Build up the dexterity and confidence to hop yourself out of any situation that used to foot cuff you..


Shorter learning curve solution is to cut across and turn every 2-3 bumps across again instead of every bump.. Skiing the slow line..

 

[SSSdave]

...
@Scruffy and @Matt Merritt nailed it- I am not talking about moguls on a 20 -30 degree pitch, but moguls with high walls, that form on 40+ degree slope, with deep troughs. I am looking for a tactic here on a specific mogul formation as typically found, on a steep western slopes of 40+ degree slopes. I typically ski east coast and I am familiar with Killington's terrain and hunter mountain's K27.
...

@WildBillD >>>"...The mogul formations I am talking about, are those one would encounter dropping into Screech OWL from the top of Grouse mountain at Beaver Creek, or those encountered at the bottom of "little Ollie" or "Heavey Metal" in Blue Sky Basin at Vail.

Actually you ARE talking about "20 -30 degree pitch" but don't feel too embarrassed about it because for years I've been correcting a list of advanced skiers on ski and backpacking boards that from visual memory overestimate slope gradients. Add to that the difference between degrees and percent slope gradients (angle tan) that engineers use but skiers confuse and it is worse. Percent grade is more useful. 45 degrees is tan 1.0/1.0= 100%

With even more time, I could customize the above map degree color ranges, but the default above is enough to clarify your thread. 28 degrees is 53.2 percent grade and 20 degrees is 36.4 percent grade. Where I often ski at Kirkwood are many such steep mogul slopes. Where KingGrump skis at Taos, even more. As one can see from above most of those slopes are in the light green 36% to 53% gradient range with a few short yellow to red spots steeper. In the future folks that want to relate slope pitches ought use this caltopo dot com link.

CalTopo - Backcountry Mapping Evolved

Yes there are moguls with near vertical right or left faces that skiers like this person regularly edge across even when scary. Many more bumps with a vertical face at bump noses that skier's don't ski. Earlier today re-edited in Adobe Premiere Elements, the video I posted above that is a short 60% grade slope section on lower Little Dipper better showing turn locations plus a separate turn by turn analysis I still need to massage a bit a day or two. Then will post it in a new ski school sub-forum thread. Moguls are more complex than just their more common forms, especially in steeper areas than skiers tend to understand because they are continually evolving as snow is pushed and scraped off with many remnant moguls that eventually disappear. I ski concave surfaces all over moguls, not just troughs because that is where flexed bent skis fit and where my brain's visual to motor control system has learned to see. It is not easy to get one's gravity perpendicular vertical mind to instead visualize at inclined plains but once one does the game becomes more automatic . If one keeps one's downhill edged ski shovels pointing within about 30 degrees of a fall line, it is amazing how a good bump skier will just flow through mogul fields.

 

[Tony S]

Would like to hear from more L3s.

moguls with high walls, that form on 40+ degree slope, with deep troughs

Steep slope 40+, large bumps, almost vertical sidewalls between bumps and at end of bump.

Let's just start with the fact that not many skiers on a percentage basis have ever even skied a sustained 40* pitch. Well known double black bump runs in the east do not approach that level of steepness.

Edit: crossed posts with SSS Dave

 

[KingGrump]

Rather than technique as stated in the title. Skiing steep nasty bumps falls more under tactics.
Line choice.

 

[dbostedo]

Percent grade is more useful.

A bit off topic, but that I'll disagree with. Everyone knows what a 30 degree or 45 degree angle looks like. But say 80% grade to someone, and you'll have to explain, and they still may not get it. We should all stop using grade unless there's a technical reason to use it. "Degrees" is much more comprehensible for most people IMO.

 

[no edge]

Radical but skiable. I would like to go back to "control," first things first!

 

[JCF]

I found this illuminating;

Comparing Steepness of Ski Trails – SKI BUM

www.skibum.net

 

[KingGrump]

I found this illuminating;

Comparing Steepness of Ski Trails – SKI BUM

www.skibum.net

No need to get all fancy.

I have a much simpler system. I simply sense internally the degree of inversion achieved by my sphincter muscle when I am standing on top of a run. The degree of accuracy is amazing.

 

[Seldomski]

View attachment 193338

@Seldomski

I do not have a recent picture of the bumps I am trying to ski, but these bumps at verbier - titled elephant sized bumps are the type I'm referencing.
Steep slope 40+, large bumps, almost vertical sidewalls between bumps and at end of bump.

Note I am not an extreme skier, I am not interested in WC mogul competition turns, I just want to understand the tactics, of skiing something like this, so I am not focusing on the wrong type of turn entry. I believe common sense says ski the trough line. I know - practice and mileage - but at some point you need to put on th big boy pants and go for it.

.

This is the sort of line I like to ski in those sort of bumps. Hopefully image isn't totally bad...limits of what I can do on my phone.

Track may be a bit too wide but hopefully communicates the idea?

 

[KingGrump]

View attachment 193338


.

Not much different from Kachina Peak.

As I have said before in post #6.

C'mon down to Taos and do a ski week.
Problem solved.

BTW, Kachina is pretty tame compare to lots of other stuff at Taos.

 

[WildBillD]

@SSS

@WildBillD >>>"...The mogul formations I am talking about, are those one would encounter dropping into Screech OWL from the top of Grouse mountain at Beaver Creek, or those encountered at the bottom of "little Ollie" or "Heavey Metal" in Blue Sky Basin at Vail.

View attachment 193355


View attachment 193356

Actually you ARE talking about "20 -30 degree pitch" but don't feel too embarrassed about it because for years I've been correcting a list of advanced skiers on ski and backpacking boards that from visual memory overestimate slope gradients. Add to that the difference between degrees and percent slope gradients (angle tan) that engineers use but skiers confuse and it is worse. Percent grade is more useful. 45 degrees is tan 1.0/1.0= 100%

With even more time, I could customize the above map degree color ranges, but the default above is enough to clarify your thread. 28 degrees is 53.2 percent grade and 20 degrees is 36.4 percent grade. Where I often ski at Kirkwood are many such steep mogul slopes. Where KingGrump skis at Taos, even more. As one can see from above most of those slopes are in the light green 36% to 53% gradient range with a few short yellow to red spots steeper. In the future folks that want to relate slope pitches ought use this caltopo dot com link.

CalTopo - Backcountry Mapping Evolved

Yes there are moguls with near vertical right or left faces that skiers like this person regularly edge across even when scary. Many more bumps with a vertical face at bump noses that skier's don't ski. Earlier today re-edited in Adobe Premiere Elements, the video I posted above that is a short 60% grade slope section on lower Little Dipper better showing turn locations plus a separate turn by turn analysis I still need to massage a bit a day or two. Then will post it in a new ski school sub-forum thread. Moguls are more complex than just their more common forms, especially in steeper areas than skiers tend to understand because they are continually evolving as snow is pushed and scraped off with many remnant moguls that eventually disappear. I ski concave surfaces all over moguls, not just troughs because that is where flexed bent skis fit and where my brain's visual to motor control system has learned to see. It is not easy to get one's gravity perpendicular vertical mind to instead visualize at inclined plains but once one does the game becomes more automatic . If one keeps one's downhill edged ski shovels pointing within about 30 degrees of a fall line, it is amazing how a good bump skier will just flow through mogul fields.

@SSSdave Note that I am talking about a 50 -100 yard section of the run of getting into Screech owl, and not the average pitch once you get into Screch OWL. The same with exiting little OLLIE and Heavey Metal. As your contour maps show, these sections are displayed as brownish red, and these are sections I refer to that usually contain the higher sidewalled moguls, and not the entire run as opposed to the Tortin in Verbier( never been there, reference by reputation only and saw pictures) which shows a consistent steep pitch for the entire run.

I really was not interested in pitch comparisons on various slopes, just that section was steep, and the type of moguls that grow there had steep sidewalls, and those runs were the places I have skied where I could describe the context of this post

Hmmm - Interesting thought, about skiing over concave surfaces, I had always sideslipped into the concave surface , or around its rim. I never thought about skiing directly over them. An interesting way to view a slope as a series of convex and concave surfaces

 

[WildBillD]

Not much different from Kachina Peak.
View attachment 193402

As I have said before in post #6.


BTW, Kachina is pretty tame compare to lots of other stuff at Taos.

Never been there, but always wanted to go. It is on my bucket list, but for now I'm on the epic pass, so that pretty much determines where I can ski(2/3 season in the east, 1/3 eason out west). lift ticket prices elsewhere are cost prohibitive.

 

[WildBillD]

Would like to hear from more L3s.





Let's just start with the fact that not many skiers on a percentage basis have ever even skied a sustained 40* pitch. Well known double black bump runs in the east do not approach that level of steepness.

Edit: crossed posts with SSS Dave

agreed

 

[SSSdave]

@SSS
...and not the entire run as opposed to the Tortin in Verbier( never been there, reference by reputation only and saw pictures) which shows a consistent steep pitch for the entire run...

Thus by posting the all steep Verbier photo, you inadvertently changed what you had been trying to convey. Ok, so that is cleared up. Not like skiing steep cold dry snow bumps like on Climax at Mammoth.

Mogul spines then through right and left faces, are other locations to make turns on, especially if initiating turns atop subtle ridge or knee points. Steep moguls due to greater scraping forces tend to form remnant to disappearing shapes within the mix of shapes that complicate line tactics. There are many remnant forms with slight mogul mound tops and slight raised spines common around smooth zones that may eventually disappear into new troughs.

Trough only bump skiers that habitually keep their two skis swiveling close together, parallel may have trouble skiing spines because on a steep face on each side, as a weighted ski is lower on such faces, the unweighted ski will be higher. Trying to keep them close is a mistake. That is why on some turns in my video shadows the uphill ski is loosely separated, not because of some novice like stem flaw haha. Because I tend to step balanced on weighted skis strongly in order for deeper edging, what is happening to the other ski has less effect. Its main purpose along with the rest of the opposite body side led by arm/hand is to apply a complementary varying counter force driving the weighted side ski down into the snow.

My mindset is one of dynamically jumping down via concave surfaces like on a fall line staircase or on moderate gradient bumps turning against the sides of mounds. A weight loaded flexed bent ski fits in such concavities if oriented to fit and on the same plain. Many are on inclined snow surfaces, not gravity vertical. Orienting one's skis in the plain of such surfaces requires visual brain automatic fast reaction experience, learned by much repetition. Thus not the continual downward shin pressure as in troughs. Without even seeing, one's body also learns by feel alone what works with good efficient rhythmic balance. A different game in the mix.

Being able to initiate variable rhythm left right left changes rapidly at critical slope locations to turn on is key. A skill to practice on moderate pitch groomed slopes while ones upper body generally faces down fall lines. Weighted ski shovels will almost always be within say 30 degrees of that fall line direction. I'll often provide with back muscles, an extra heel push at turn ends that also will slow speed instead of jetting out into following turns.

Also versus comp moguls where aesthetics is judged, more useful subtle movements can be going on with the upper body for useful countering forces. Being too upper body quiet or too rigidly facing down fall lines ought not be a rigid strategy. Experiment. If something works, use it.

 

[justplanesteve]

am familiar with....(snip)...... K27

There's still......K13.

 

[KingGrump]

but for now I'm on the epic pass,

I am so sorry.