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New pants help/advice

vinnieloo

In the parking lot (formerly "At the base lodge")
Skier
Joined
Nov 25, 2020
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1
Location
upstate NY
Hey everyone,
I am in the market for some new pants. I am looking for something for the colder/coldest days, Northeast, resort/lift-served. I ski a mix of everything from groomers to trees and bumps. I usually run on the warmer/somewhat sweatier side. I am coming from a ~2005 Patagonia, don't remember the model. Tag says 100% nylon and Gore-Tex XCR. It's a 2 layer construction with a mesh liner. I wear a midweight base layer and have loved how these pants perform. I am usually warm enough and usually not too clammy. I have softshell pants for the warmer days.

Looking to hear people's experience with Gore Tex 2 layer, 3 layer and Pro or other WP/B membranes. I want at least similar performance to what I have now. I understand waterproof/breathable but don't have any practical experience with the various kinds. I am worried that the more breathable Pro, eVent or similar would be cold on the lift ride back up. Also if you have experience with the various face fabrics to add, that would be great too (for falls, ice, tree branches, etc). Hoping to get another 15 yrs out of it. ~15-20 days a year.

Right now looking at patagonia powder bowl vs powslayer.

Any thoughts, insight or advice is appreciated.
Thanks,
vince
 

Analisa

Making fresh tracks
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Joined
Dec 29, 2017
Posts
982
@vinnieloo - When Gore revamped their line, they replaced XCR and "Classic" Gore Tex with Pro & Performance. XCR and Pro are both the elevated membranes, with Pro having better breathe than XCR. XCR's tested breathability really varies by mean relative humidity, meaning vapor transfer is faster the swampier you/the air is. Both Pro and Performance help flatten out that relationship. Pro has better MVTR across the board, Performance is worse in high humidity events and better in low humidity events. Basically XCR works better in really swampy conditions, but Performance is less likely to build up to that point. None hold a candle to eVent.

One important thing to call out is that breathability is the industry's name for the moisture vapor transmission rate. It's completely separate from the air permeability, or the ability for wind to cut through. No one really bothers to measure air permeability for membranes because the customer's rarely finds them disappointing.

But breathe and air permeability are also heavily influenced by the face & inner fabrications and construction. The Powslayer you're looking at uses a 40 denier nylon, which is stronger & more abrasion resistant than polyester (but also a lot more expensive to get recycled so Patagonia errs towards nylon). The Powder Bowl uses polyester, but compensates by upping the denier to 150. And then to make things even more complex, the knit or weave impacts performance. Knits are like sweaters and t-shirts; wovens are like dress shirts or jeans. Knits use less fabric, breathe better, are a lot more automated in manufacturing and cheaper to produce. Wovens are more durable (abrasion/tear resistant) overall, but weave patterns like ripstop and double weaves up the ante even more. I personally don't think it's ever appropriate to use a knit as a face fabric on outerwear (gives side eye to mountain hardwear), but some people like it on the internal side. Gore Tex C-Knit is an example that uses a knit backer on 3L Gore Performance to give it a little more softness and breathability. But they do upsell it as an upgraded feature even though it for sure saves production costs.

In terms of what you're looking at, both are great pants. However, nothing you've written convinces me that you need to pay the premium for Powslayer pants. At 19oz, they're likely the lightest, most minimal pants on the market. Every competitor in the Gore Pro pant market is using something heavier than 40D, 4oz/yd (like the Arcteryx Rush, MHW Exposure 2, & Marmot BL Pro). Only the Arcteryx Sabre LT weighs less, but their face fabric is still a little more substantial - they cut the fat by getting rid of pockets and slimming down the fit. Whether the Powslayer can make it 15 years is tough to call, but I can pretty confidently gander that they're not as warm or durable than the pants you're retiring.

There are a number of options between the Powder Bowl and Powslayer, particularly the Untracked if you're drawn to Patagonia.

Curious, does your current pair have vents, and if so, are they open or do they have mesh covering the opening?
 

snwbrdr

Out on the slopes
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Oct 3, 2020
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932
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CA
I don't have money for Goretex... and my legs have never been cold with cheaper shells, even with the vents open. It's about layering up to stay warm, instead of dependent on 1 single layer to do it all.
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
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Nov 17, 2015
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7,617
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Great White North (Eastern side currently)
Also of interest
BTW, I am a cheap SOB. Nevertheless, if I had a re-do I would buy my expensive Arcteryx top of the line bib pants again.
 

BC.

NEPA ShopRat/Skier
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@Analisa

What is the hierarchy of Patagonia winter softgoods (jacket/pants)...(quality/cost, etc.)?

-Powslayer
-Untracked
-Powder Bowl

Any I am missing?

Appreciate your knowledge....looking to get some Xmas gifts for family.
 

Analisa

Making fresh tracks
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Joined
Dec 29, 2017
Posts
982
@BC. Sure thing. I separated the Gore & proprietary membrane since it gets a little fuzzy with the hierarchy (like a 3 layer proprietary membrane vs. 2 layer Gore)

-Pow Slayer: 3 layer, Gore Pro, no insulation, nylon
-Untracked: 3 layer, GoreTex, no insulation except fleeced backing, nylon
-Powder Bowl: 2 layer, GoreTex, no insulation, polyester
-Insulated Powder Bowl: 2 layer, Gore Tex, insulated, polyester

-Stormstride: 3 layer, H2No, no insulation, nylon
-SnowDrifter bib: 3 layer, H2No, no insulation, polyester
-SnowShot: 2 layer, H2No, no insulation, polyester
-Snowbelle: 2 layer, H2No, insulated, polyester (W's only)
 

Heeler

Doug M.
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Mar 17, 2017
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73
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Seattle, Wa.
FWIW.
I didn't care for the "crinkly", stiffer feel of the 3-layer Gore-Tex Pro in the Pow Slayer pant. Personal preference but I have found other, softer 3-layer pants with exceptional performance.

Currently I have:
-Arc'teryx bibs: 2 layer Gore-Tex XCR, 15 years old. Bombproof w/exceptional performance. Slim fit, OK comfort.
-Trew "Eagle" pant: 3 layer Gelanots®, 8 years old. Bombproof w/exceptional performance. Relaxed/loose fit, very comfortable. ( Now the Trewth Trouser w/3L-PNW fabric. I talked with Trew and was told the fit was/is very similar to the Eagle). Perhaps Analisa can elaborate on the 3L-PNW fabric?
-Helly Hansen "Ridge" pant: 3 layer HellyTech Pro, 2 years old. Great performance and durability so far. Regular fit, extremely comfortable.
All size medium.
For reference, I'm 5'10.5" and 170lbs. Trying to retain an athletic build but my lean muscle mass keeps morphing:eek:

I really liked the fit and feel of the Powder Bowl pant but I found a better deal on the HH Ridge. For me the fit and feel are very similar. I've been extremely happy with the Ridge. It's advertised as a "stretch" layout but I find them to be more soft/giving than actually stretchy. Still, very comfortable.

I tend to ski warm also. All of the above have worked well in all temps/conditions with me switching between thermal and regular CW-X compression tights and shorts. Sorry, not meant to be a plug for CW-X. That being said, for any of you not skiing in a compression tight/short (especially those of us getting older says the soon to be 61 y.o.) OMG, try it, you'll never go back to regular long johns and your muscles will thank you.

Good luck with you search.
 

DanoT

RVer-Skier
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Last season I bought the best ski pants that I have ever owned only they are not ski pants they are Burton Gore-Tex bib snowboard pants.
-7 pockets including thigh pockets with snap and velcro closure, 2 zippered pockets are felt inside with a mesh lining and sewn to one of the mesh is a patch of cloth with a button hole:huh:, There are also 2 buttons above the zippered fly, again:huh:
-Burton calls it a "Living Lining, climate control comfort". There are also inner thigh vent zippers with mesh lining.
-One feature that I didn't notice until I got the pants home: there is an elastic loop sticking out of the back of the pant leg about 6 inches up from the bottom of the outer cuff. Pull on that loop and it lifts the hem at the back of the cuff and locks it in the "up" position. I guess this is to allow snowboarders to wear their pants low slung but avoid stepping on the hem when walking:D. For a skier this feature prevents a pant cuff from ever getting caught in the heel piece when stepping in to a binding.:thumb::thumb:
 

Tony Storaro

Glorified Tobogganer
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Europe
Huge fan of bibs here.
Been in Powslayers for the last two seasons and cant fault them. They are great.
However if warmth is of importance I'd say Arcteryx Theta SV (if they still make them, which I am not sure they do) and Sabre are better. Especially Sabre, which have that thin lining/brushed inside which makes them a pleasure to wear.

This year bought Volcom rain Gore Tex bibs but am yet to try them so cant say anything.

Last season I bought the best ski pants that I have ever owned only they are not ski pants they are Burton Gore-Tex bib snowboard pants.


Ahh, wish you'd have mentioned that earlier mate as in the Burton line up for this year I have found exactly the colour I wanted-the bright yellow Japan Pro Guide...well, next year perhaps...
 
Last edited:

DanoT

RVer-Skier
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Ahh, wish you'd have mentioned that earlier mate as in the Burton line up for this year I have found exactly the colour I wanted-the bright yellow Japan Pro Guide...well, next year perhaps...
I have been pleased with Anon helmet and goggles in the past and they are a Burton owned brand. Burton stuff is usually well made and in general, don't overlook snowboard clothing as those snowboarders seem to go for the rugged gear.

I had tried on HH bibs in XL and they fit fine around the waist and hips but were too snug in the bib part. The XXL was voluminous, like wearing a tent.

The Burton snowboard bibs are a nice relaxed fit and there is a lot of attention to detail in the design and construction
 

ejj

Prairie Skier
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Joined
Dec 4, 2015
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300
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Minneapolis
Soooo many options, and fit it a big deal. I like the lighter-weight goretex stuff with a decent hand. (I don't like the crinkly stuff.) Some of my favorites are the Arcteryx Sabre AR pants and Sabre LT bibs. I value a good thigh pocket. From Patagonia the Untracked and Powderbowl are very nice, but a little heavier. I'd go with the untracked. For me, the Flylow stuff is too big and heavy. Just my opinion though. You need to find some pants and try them on and feel them.
 

noobski

Out on the slopes
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Dec 29, 2020
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569
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Midwest
I did not like the Patagonia in terms of fit. Tried all of the ones you're describing as pants (not bibs though) (I'm 6'2 and 170)

I have used the Arcteryx Cassiar Pants (Favorite pants (non-bib), don't need much layering, super comfortable, amazing stretch, great repellency yet breathes), Sabre pants (definetly need layers. Very durable. great repellency, but common plumber butt and Don't like the pocket placement), and Mountain Hardware Softshells (don't recall the title, okay for most non-cold days, don't like pockets at all but were cheap and I wear to not over use my expensive gear). The Cassiar by far are my favorites as pants go. I wear them hiking and stuff as well, when cold.

But overall, I would go with bibs for most all skiing, especially powder. I tried the Arcteryx Beta and Rush both fine products, but really didn't like them compared to what I ended up buying which were the Marmot goretex bibs that have perfect pocket placements and for guys a perfect zipper placement up and down for bathroom use. They are super durable and comfortable. Great repellency. I forgot the name, but they were Precursors to the BL Pro with 3x Gore and more pockets. I love them and wished I could find them again in their old formats.

I ordered all of my pants via SierraTradingPost pre TJMaxx buyout when they were awesome and did demo sales at huge discounts so I don't recall every paying more than 40%-50% of the retail price. Knowing what I know now, I would have paid up to full price on Marmots, but not the Acteryx. I would, though, probably pay up to the usual 25% discounts commonly found for Arcteryx on the Cassiars, however I don't envision needing to replace any of these for many years.

Hope that helps a bit.
 

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