• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Non-toe-release pin tech binding in bounds- Don't do it

Slim

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Oct 2, 2017
Posts
2,986
Location
Duluth, MN
Doesn't the Duke (PT intended) have pins for the uphill, like the shift?? If there is a "Duke" no PT I did not mean that one.
Yes, there ”original” Duke was a frame binding.

 
Last edited:

Slim

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Oct 2, 2017
Posts
2,986
Location
Duluth, MN
The research @Slim is referencing tested exactly that so prepared to be shocked -- touring ISO soles on MNC certified bindings. And what he showed is that even that boots that meet the DIN standard that is approved for use in MNC certified bindings have unreliable release.

You can get access to most of his work here: https://jeffcampbellengineering.com/publications . In particular, it's the work done in his dissertation: https://digital.lib.washington.edu/researchworks/handle/1773/38177

The Cliff notes version of Campbells research was that even properly adjusted bindings, even ones that were approved, even ones that tested properly on a release test, might not release properly in some situations.

What he looked at was lateral release, combined with downward pressure. As we all know, the standard shop (and certification) test is done with no load. Completely horizontal. I agree with him that it seems very likely, that in real life, if you have a lateral force, you also have a forward loading for example if your ski hits a stump sideways in front of you. A forward twisting fall in other words.

The unloaded lateral release test is (probably) easier to pass with rubber soles if you use a sliding AFD. Therefore, this design has become very prevalent. The problem is that Campbells research indicates that these types of bindings actually perform worse, in the forward twisting fall test, than bindings with a “traditional” rigid AFD.

The problem is that binding designers have no incentive to come up with a better designs, since they still would only pass the same test as all the other bindings out there.

His research was pretty limited, and boot(soles) have changed a lot in the years since, so it would be really nice to see someone do another set of tests, with several of the current Gripwalk boots, and some of the new bindings.
 
Last edited:
Thread Starter
TS
T

ted

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Posts
599
I think everyone is overestimating the danger of breaking bones with pin bindings.

There are hundreds of thousands of skiers using them.

Personally, i had a few releases, when i should have.

Possibly, but isn't it better to know the risks?

Especially if some one is just spending the day inbounds?
 

Wilhelmson

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
May 2, 2017
Posts
4,344
Which one?...

I dont get it - for some reason people are always asking why i have a haloween mask on.

I understand that pin bindings arent as safe as those with alpine suitable toe release. Easily overlooked perhaps.

More concerning is whether new "at" compatible alpine boots are safe with alpine bindings designed to accept said at compatible alpine boots.
 

ScottB

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Oct 29, 2016
Posts
2,189
Location
Gloucester, MA
What he looked at was lateral release, combined with downward pressure. As we all know, the standard shop (and certification) test is done with no load. Completely horizontal. I agree with him that it seems very likely, that in real life, if you have a lateral force, you also have a forward loading for example if your ski hits a stump sideways in front of you. A forward twisting fall in other words.

The unloaded lateral release test is (probably) easier to pass with rubber soles if you use a sliding AFD. Therefore, this design has become very prevalent. The problem is that Campbells research indicates that these types of bindings actually perform worse, in the forward twisting fall test, than bindings with a “traditional” rigid AFD.

That makes sense to me, thanks for the explanation. I have always looked at the sliding AFD and wondered how well it worked with your weight on it and after some grit gets in it, and under the impact load of a fall. It always seemed better to me to have the rigid teflon pad AFD under your toe.
 

Bruno Schull

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Posts
364
I think there is a big part of this discussion that is not often recognized but is really important.

First, there are many things that we can talk about regarding bindings and safety, and there are usually two sides. For example, weight. An good argument could be made that lighter bindings are safer in some circumstances...but a counter argument could be made that heavier bindings might actually ski better, and would likely be more durable, and thus safer. Or there is data that shows that bindings that release laterally at the toe (like classic alpine bindings and some pin bindings) decrease the risk of tib/fib fractures but increase the risk of ACL tears, whereas bindings that release at the heel (like classic pin bindings) do the opposite, they increase the risk of tib/fib fractures but decrease the risk of ACL tears (see the Wildsnow testing). What would you prefer, a broken tib/fib or a torn ACL? These debates can go on forever.

But I think they are largely irrelevant.

In my view, the biggest and most important difference in release function between alpine and pin bindings is related to the interface between boot and binding.

Alpine bindings, and the Shift hybrid binding, hold the boot in the binding with wide, smooth, plastic components that have large surface areas, and mate with corresponding portions of boot soles, for example Gripwalk soles.

In contrast, pin bindings bold the boot in the binding with metal components, meeting at tiny surface areas, and with poor and inconsistent interfaces between boot soles and binding surfaces (For example, where ski brakes contact boot soles).

I think that these differences make pin binding release far more unpredicatble and sensitive to conditions compared to alpine and Shift bindings, and basically render pin binding release unreliable and inconsistent, which is supported by testing, for example, in last year's Skialper binding comparison. Of dozens of pin bindings tested, all of them, save one, had widely different values between left and right sides with the same boot, between different boots, and so on.

I should also say that I find pin binding release testing basically meaningless. For example, let's say you put a pin binding and boot into a Wintersteiger or Montanna machine and run some tests. Then you repeat these tests, with 100, or 200, or 300, or 400, or 500 kg of weight pressing down on the boot (forces easy to generate when skiing). Then twist the ski tips and tails to introduce some torsion. Then apply some lateral force to bend the top of the boot sideways just to get the forces a little skewed. Don't forget to wear out the soles, especially where they contact the ski brakes, and generally gouge, score, and ground the pins and fittings on boot and binding. Finally, spray the whole thing with a mixture of ice, snow, sand, and mud, and heat it up and cool it down mayve 500 cycles. THEN do the test. Do you think you would have any kind of consistent release?

The area where pins and pin fittings meet, and the tiny ramped metal surfaces that the pins have to follow to release a boot, are simply too small to handle these forces with any predictability.

I think that an alpine boot and binding, or the Shift used with a boot with a Griwalk sole, would perform much better in these conditions, because the interface between boot and binding is far more tolerable of inconsistencies, or, to say is another way, the wide, smooth plastic surfaces with large surface area provide a much mold solid and consistent interface.

To say nothing of elasticity which is so important for binding performance and safety.

That's why I have moved my back country and 50/50 set ups completely over to Shifts, and boots with Gripwalk soles.

Further, I think that manufacturers have greatly oversold the release function of pin bindings and/or ignored the obvious problems.

Atomic/Salomon deserve credit for bringing the Shift to market.

OK, rant over. That's my take.
 

Rod9301

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Posts
2,476
I think there is a big part of this discussion that is not often recognized but is really important.

First, there are many things that we can talk about regarding bindings and safety, and there are usually two sides. For example, weight. An good argument could be made that lighter bindings are safer in some circumstances...but a counter argument could be made that heavier bindings might actually ski better, and would likely be more durable, and thus safer. Or there is data that shows that bindings that release laterally at the toe (like classic alpine bindings and some pin bindings) decrease the risk of tib/fib fractures but increase the risk of ACL tears, whereas bindings that release at the heel (like classic pin bindings) do the opposite, they increase the risk of tib/fib fractures but decrease the risk of ACL tears (see the Wildsnow testing). What would you prefer, a broken tib/fib or a torn ACL? These debates can go on forever.

But I think they are largely irrelevant.

In my view, the biggest and most important difference in release function between alpine and pin bindings is related to the interface between boot and binding.

Alpine bindings, and the Shift hybrid binding, hold the boot in the binding with wide, smooth, plastic components that have large surface areas, and mate with corresponding portions of boot soles, for example Gripwalk soles.

In contrast, pin bindings bold the boot in the binding with metal components, meeting at tiny surface areas, and with poor and inconsistent interfaces between boot soles and binding surfaces (For example, where ski brakes contact boot soles).

I think that these differences make pin binding release far more unpredicatble and sensitive to conditions compared to alpine and Shift bindings, and basically render pin binding release unreliable and inconsistent, which is supported by testing, for example, in last year's Skialper binding comparison. Of dozens of pin bindings tested, all of them, save one, had widely different values between left and right sides with the same boot, between different boots, and so on.

I should also say that I find pin binding release testing basically meaningless. For example, let's say you put a pin binding and boot into a Wintersteiger or Montanna machine and run some tests. Then you repeat these tests, with 100, or 200, or 300, or 400, or 500 kg of weight pressing down on the boot (forces easy to generate when skiing). Then twist the ski tips and tails to introduce some torsion. Then apply some lateral force to bend the top of the boot sideways just to get the forces a little skewed. Don't forget to wear out the soles, especially where they contact the ski brakes, and generally gouge, score, and ground the pins and fittings on boot and binding. Finally, spray the whole thing with a mixture of ice, snow, sand, and mud, and heat it up and cool it down mayve 500 cycles. THEN do the test. Do you think you would have any kind of consistent release?

The area where pins and pin fittings meet, and the tiny ramped metal surfaces that the pins have to follow to release a boot, are simply too small to handle these forces with any predictability.

I think that an alpine boot and binding, or the Shift used with a boot with a Griwalk sole, would perform much better in these conditions, because the interface between boot and binding is far more tolerable of inconsistencies, or, to say is another way, the wide, smooth plastic surfaces with large surface area provide a much mold solid and consistent interface.

To say nothing of elasticity which is so important for binding performance and safety.

That's why I have moved my back country and 50/50 set ups completely over to Shifts, and boots with Gripwalk soles.

Further, I think that manufacturers have greatly oversold the release function of pin bindings and/or ignored the obvious problems.

Atomic/Salomon deserve credit for bringing the Shift to market.

OK, rant over. That's my take.
That's like, your opinion, man.
 

ScottB

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Oct 29, 2016
Posts
2,189
Location
Gloucester, MA
Bruno,

Why is the pin interface so much worse than an alpine toe interface. You mention surface area. If the alpine binding touches your boot on a curved surface, then theoretically there is line contact. I am not totally clear why larger surface area is good or bad, I would have to think about it. Please give more specifics to support your assertions.

Personally, If I think about a pin in an insert, its captured until the pin slides all the way out of the insert, possibly on both sides of the toe. At least if the alpine binding toe is close to flat, it just has to slide sideways to release, or the toe has to rotate enough to let go of the boot. Toe rotation is basically in a sealed mechanism, so that should be less effected by dirt, ect...
 

Bruno Schull

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Posts
364
Hi Scott--I understand what you mean. I think you can feel the difference, for example, if you put a boot in a binding, and press to the boot to the side to feel the elastic travel, or to initiate release. With alpine bindings, that's usually a smooth, relatively consistent feeling or motion, all the way through the elastic travel, until it releases at a clear point. With a pin interface, from what I have felt/experienced, it is much more rough (or "scrapy" or "raspy"). The forces as the boot moves sideways are incosistent, and the release is unpredictable, and a bit violent. I have also found this to be true of classic pin bindings, as well as pin bindings like the Vipec/Tecton that release laterally at the toe. The Vipec/Tecton travel and release is by no means smooth; instead, I have found it to be a "sticky" or "catchy" until the final moment when the toe wings flip down and the boot releases. This is especially true when weighting the boot (as it would be in any kind of real-world release).

I also think the wide, flat, smooth, AFD interfaces on Alpine/Shift bindings, and boots with Gripwalk soles, make a big difference. When you weight the boot, much of your weight is suported by these interfaces. With pin bindings, your weight bears down on the pin/fitting interface, greatly increasing the forces and friction between these tiny bits of metal, which obviously effects the release function.

But, as Rod wrote above, that's just my perspective, although I should say that it seems to be supported by the only testing of this I have seen, in the Skialper buyer's guide bible (which is a great resource).
 

ScottB

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Oct 29, 2016
Posts
2,189
Location
Gloucester, MA
I understand what you are saying and it makes sense. Getting the pins to release from their inserts seems a lot more "complicated" than the toe sliding out of an alpine binding, which it is specifically designed to do. For an alpine binding, the toe piece rotates sideways, and maybe some can rotate up. I personally have no idea how a pin toe (or heel for that matter) releases and how it is specifically designed to do that. Someone at some point mentioned the bindings might be ripped of the ski before the pins release from the toe (I think that was if locked). I am in the "pin bindings scare me camp", which is why I skin with shifts and just stay away from Tech bindings. I guess on the "up" I am in pins with my shifts, but I have watched the arms that hold the pins rotate and have some ability to release, especially if you don't use the second "stiffer or lock" setting on them. I will accept the pin risk on the way up, because I move very slowwww.

I did ski downhill a short ways with my skins once so far, and I debated in my mind about flipping the shifts into downhill mode, but didn't. I went real slowwwww downhill due to the drag of my skins. I was moving so slow that it might have put more force into my pins, but it seemed OK at the time. Its hard to get away from risk completely, especially if you are sliding down a mountain on two flat boards.
 

pais alto

me encanta el país alto
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 11, 2015
Posts
1,980
Location
Theres a certain amount of unwarranted fear about tech bindings release function here.

In skiing mode, the pins on tech bindings are held into the boot receptors by springs. The arms holding the pins spread under spring pressure, releasing the boot toe, when the heel of the boot swings to either side and the binding heel piece rotates.

In tour mode the pins are locked so that you don’t “throw a shoe” - the toe piece won’t release the boot while you’re skiing.

Watch this.

 
Last edited:

Bruno Schull

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Posts
364
Pais alto, I wouldn't call fear of pin bindings unarranted--Id call it honest. I skied with pin bindings for years, before an ankle and knee injury, with pin bindings, forced me to take a closer look at my system. I've also followed Wildsnow (the source of your link) for years, and, if you have as well, I'm sure you've read Lou's take about checking your pin bindings obsessively, about being awate of the very narrow range of tolerance, the limits of pin bindings, and so on. All that is due to the inherently finicky nature of pin binding retention and release. When I learned on Wildsnow about the possibility that pin bindings actually may help mitigate ACL tears, compared to alpine bindings, I was first overjoyed...then sobered when I thought about it some more, played with bindings, skied, and so on. As i said, I think the interface is more important that the release direction/mode/whatever. But don't take my word for it--listen to the Cody Townsend interview in the OP link (I think I saw it there). He says it clear..."Pin bindings are f...ing dangerous." Considering his level of experience and technical understanding, I trust his perspective.
 

pais alto

me encanta el país alto
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 11, 2015
Posts
1,980
Location
@Bruno Schull, to be accurate I wrote “Theres a certain amount of unwarranted fear...” meaning not all the fears expressed in this thread are warranted. That’s my opinion. And your take is an opinion, and Cody Townsend’s take is certainly just an opinion. Even though someone is a good skier, like CT, they may not be 100% credible on certain topics. I’d like a little more info on CT’s technical background and reason for saying what he did before I decide how much cred to give his one-off interview line.

But I don’t care whether you or anyone uses tech bindings, or even if they ski. I just wanted to express my opinion that some people overestimate the danger of skiing on tech bindings, just like some people overestimate the danger of skiing, even on regular alpine bindings. And to add further perspective, some people underestimate the dangers of tech bindings, alpine bindings, and skiing.
 

jmeb

Enjoys skiing.
Skier
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
4,496
Location
Colorado
I’d like a little more info on CT’s technical background and reason for saying what he did before I decide how much cred to give his one-off interview line.

FWIW -- it's not really a one-off line in an interview. It's a rich discussion between Cody and Jonathan on a whole slew of topics around tech bindings.

Based on following CT a bunch, I think he'd be the first to agree he's not an engineer. But that he is someone who has put more time into on-hill ski binding testing and development than all but a couple handful of people in the world.
 

Bruno Schull

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Posts
364
@pais alto, sorry to be too intense/preachy. You're right, of course. To each his own, we all make our own decisions, and, yes, pin binding obviously work, and have worked, for quite some time.

@jmeb, yes, listening to the interview, I was struck by CT's level of understanding with the binding world. Great to listen to his perspective.
 

pais alto

me encanta el país alto
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 11, 2015
Posts
1,980
Location
FWIW, CT does have some background in bindings, and it might be worth noting that he started an AMA on Shift bindings on TGR.

So he has strongly held feelings about them, being a spokesperson and all, and he skis the way he skis, which isn’t how I ski...if any of that makes a difference to you. It might be worth noting that he hasn’t been touring that long, as I saw in a different interview.
 

Slim

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Oct 2, 2017
Posts
2,986
Location
Duluth, MN
I agree with @pais alto that there is, among some people, an unwarranted fear/dislike of tech bindings.

At the same time, there is also unwarranted ‘faith’ in tech bindings, and consequently, their inbounds use, among some other people.

Both can be true.
I think the big thing is to avoid making general statements, like: “tech bindings are f#$+ing dangerous”. You what else is F#$&ing dangerous? Driving on snow covered roads. Skiing. Drinking alcohol. Life.

What we need, is to carefully consider risks in different activities, and which tool might be most appropriate to the conditions, and whether we are ok with those risks.

For example:
It would probably be safer to tour in DIN sole boots in a frame binding. At least, up to the moment you have to do some rock scrambling....

And even if you never step out of your skis, are you willing to lug the weight around?
I would be safer riding my mtb with a full face helmet, goggles and full body armor, but I (usually) do not.
 

Bruno Schull

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Posts
364
Lots of references to the CT interview. It's a great interview, and you can skip to the parts about bindings, if you don't want to listen to the whole thing. There really is a great deal of information about binding design and testing there, not just about pin bindings, but bindings in general. For example, I found his descriptions of testing with the Atomic folks, and his explanations about why a slalom racer might want a binding with less elasticity than a downhill racer, really interesting. Also, I think it's important to note that CT is not necessarily pushing the Shift--he says he often skis on classic pin bindings, and explains when/how he reaches that decision.

@Slim--yes, I am willing to lug that weight around. For the kinds of ski touring that I do, it makes sense. I can separate all my back country skiing into two categories: 1) mellow tours with my wife and a guide, where pace and weight just don't matter, or 2) using my touring skis to access ice and alpine climbs in the Alps, and then skiing back out at the end of the day when I'm tired, carrying a heavy pack and rope, and so on. In these situations, using the Shift gives me peace of mind, confidence, and a good margin of control and safety. If I was specifically trying to ski as fast as possible to the top of high peaks, if I was doing long tours with huge vertical gain near the very limits of my ability, or if I was doing some kind of crazy trans-polar or trans-mountian range expedition, I might use classic pin bindings. However, as I explained above, that's just not the kind of skiing that I do.

And of course CT does not (just) make blanket statements. If you have not listened to the interview (maybe you have) I think you'll agree that his statement, "Pin bindings are fucking dangerous," is backed up by a great deal of though, experience, reasoning, and nuanced analysis. I certainly trust his perspective.
 

Aquila

Getting on the lift
Skier
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Posts
182
Location
Canada
If we're talking about CT's take on tech bindings in here, it's worth noting for those who haven't listened to the interview - he comments that he still does frequently use pin bindings (though not inbounds!). It's all about understanding the risk profile for what you're doing and making an informed decision.
 
Top