Not a review just an observation

[fatbob]

Hope the 3 bags are weed....

 

[Roundturns]

Whether the ski is “slotted “ by the manufacturer as Advanced, Intermediate, Expert, unless you’re capable of being able to bend that ski into an arc you’re likely not going to enjoy it much.
Two sheets of metal , a 130 lb. Skier, skiing 10 miles an hour probably isn’t going to work very well or at least as designed.

 

[scott43]

Hope the 3 bags are weed....

Naturally. Gravel ..

 

[scott43]

Whether the ski is “slotted “ by the manufacturer as Advanced, Intermediate, Expert, unless you’re capable of being able to bend that ski into an arc you’re likely not going to enjoy it much.
Two sheets of metal , a 130 lb. Skier, skiing 10 miles an hour probably isn’t going to work very well or at least as designed.

I would say not as designed. But working? Yeah probably.

 

[Tony Storaro]

Can't ride a road bike without spandex shorts..right? Or a gravel bike without a moustache and 3 bags..

Absolutely not!!!

 

[Tony Storaro]

This discussion reminds me of the unapologetically transparent strategy of directly eliciting the human ego with ski equipment branding. For many other similar products, marketing knows how easy we find it to connect the model name of a product with our personal identities. Cuts straight through society’s emerging pretense of humility so thinly veiled over our social media identities. But when we are shopping for ski equipment, the story changes: “F*ck that sh*t, being humble is for wussies, I am AWESOME and get out of my way!”

When you think of it, us skiers are like superheroes/villains on secret missions in fantasy worlds. “OK, time to put on my Doberman boots, click into my Attack bindings on my Enforcer skis to ride the Chariot of Fire lift to get to the Devil’s Plunge trail and perform the Phantom move all the way down to the bottom where I will then be available for my post dark arts black ops mission press conference. One would think that a cross between a Marine, a Warlock, James Bond and Ted Bundy would make the perfect skier.

You forgot the Stormriders. Very disappointing.

 

[Tony Storaro]

I'm not at the same level in skis, but this happens in bikes. There was a great and belligerent man named Jobst Brandt who rightly argued that if you didn't let someone see if they were on a steel/alu/carbon/Ti bike, they would not be able to tell the difference between them.

That's like saying one cant tell the difference between 65, 85 and 105 mm waist ski.

For the general public maybe, but for the fringe lunatics gathered here-no way.

I was thinking about that today when visiting a shop to try the new CS 130-turned out they were not available (naturally) and there was a lady there trying to buy a pair of boots.
The guy in the shop was so f*cking clueless I had an acute case of Spanish shame. It was totally embarrassing to listen to him not being able to answer questions virtually ANY Pugskier could answer in his sleep, unconscious or totally drunk.
So I had to act against my nature and step in. You won't believe it but the concept of "shell check" was totally alien for both of them and they were about to agree that 24.5 is a very good size for someone whose feet were 23.9 cm long

One of the most embarrassing scenes I have ever witnessed man, not gonna lie.

But that made me once again think about how not normal the people here are, how far from the average skier.

Me? In the immortal words of Jim Morrison: Proud to be a part of this number!

 

[scott43]

Let's be honest..many folks ride skis that haven't been sharpened or waxed in years... You think they notice?!

 

[cantunamunch]

That's like saying one cant tell the difference between 65, 85 and 105 mm waist ski.

You're being over-generous with the tire size range available when Jobst was writing.

Let's be honest..many folks ride skis that haven't been sharpened or waxed in years... You think they notice?!

Yes. But for every failure case, they blame the conditions, the difficulty of the terrain, themselves, before even considering the true cause.

 

[Racetiger]

You forgot the Stormriders. Very disappointing.

Yes but that ski example would have required a cross between a Marine, a Warlock, James Bond, Ted Bundy and the Weatherman. I’m not so sure that the Weatherman can roll with the other four.

 

[James]

You forgot the Stormriders. Very disappointing.

Death Wish and Hero.

This whole category thing is perhaps the biggest non issue ever discussed here.

The only categories that matter are beginning and low intermediate.

 

[Racetiger]

You know it! Death Wish? Never buy a ski that you put in a position to tell you they “told you so”. With that in mind, it may make a better name for bindings. Now all we need is a ski with a little speaker so that it can laugh out loud. I would settle for a very sarcastic Carve device. If I had a nickel for everytime I’ve seen a “Hero Elite” A framing over the back seat down the mountain, I would have enough money for a full decade of Superman comic books.

 

[David Chaus]

That's like saying one cant tell the difference between 65, 85 and 105 mm waist ski.

You know, just yesterday I was out my 77's, and a 78 would have been such a better choice for the day.

 

[François Pugh]

I learned many decades ago that if I wanted a ski capable of turning my (very slight) mass in a decent turn at any reasonable speed, I had to buy "expert" skis, and I'm not even talking about high speeds. I did not consider myself an expert, but expert skis were what I had to get.
The industry expects their customers to exaggerate their abilities, and inflates the ski ratings accordingly.
In my humble opinion, if you are skiing on a groomed run, with a ski designed for the speed you are carrying, and you know how a ski works and are not afraid to tip it (goes without saying) all skis are easy to ski. For deeper snow, (especially chopped up) rocker and width do make it easier.
Being able to enjoy skiing without having a clue on what to do with your skis may require beginner skis, but you really would be better off getting a clue. Of course, I will defer to instructors when it comes to never-evers.
Unfortunately, more massive beginners NEED a stouter skis than other beginners.

 

[AlexisLD]

As an exercise, try to find a ski rated exclusively as a beginner ski on Evo.com (or any other retailer)... they are a very rare species even though most skiers are beginners. There is nothing bad about most beginners skis if good materials are used.

 

[cantunamunch]

As an exercise, try to find a ski rated exclusively as a beginner ski on Evo.com (or any other retailer)... they are a very rare species even though most skiers are beginners. There is nothing bad about most beginners skis if good materials are used.

OFC, that speaks to the biases built into the rating system and to evo's ordering strategy, as much as or more than to the nature of all skis on market.

In other words, any manufacturer is going to hesitate to rate one of their skis as 'purely beginner' because purchasers have ego - unless they're rental-specific.

And then, a retailer like evo is not going to want to order such low-rated skis because they know their customer base better than that.

 

[Uncle-A]

Several years ago I owned a ski that was everybody first love as an EXPERT ski. I didn't like it, so the ski I got next was a model below the EXPERT ski. It performed great for me, but I was just 155 LBS back then and the EXPERT ski was just too stiff for my light weight at the time. It was not that the EXPERT ski was crap it just wasn't right for me and being right for me is all that matters.

 

[geepers]

Whether the ski is “slotted “ by the manufacturer as Advanced, Intermediate, Expert, unless you’re capable of being able to bend that ski into an arc you’re likely not going to enjoy it much.
Two sheets of metal , a 130 lb. Skier, skiing 10 miles an hour probably isn’t going to work very well or at least as designed.

The 10 mph likely to have much more to do with it than the 130lb. 10 mph is unlikely to require much angle to balance lateral forces and the main determinant to bending the ski is edge angle. Pressure (from weight) has a very secondary effect and only really shows up on soft snow with very significant increases in load.

Quick test - support a ski tip n tail and see how much weight needs to bend, say, 50mm. It will be a fraction of body weight. 130lb would be more than enough to bend a ski more than 50mm. They are skis, not I-beams. If the middle portion of the ski is not supported by a surface, either because it is in a dip or the ski has been tipped, then it will bend.

Ski below is a Rossi Exp 84 the 2017/18 one with the Look binding package. Yellow and black before they went all screwy with that bluey/greeny version. Not the stiffest ski but not a wet noodle. Not a lot of weight resting on that foot,




So what makes a ski beginner/intermediate vs expert?

Jurij Franko (former Elan ski designer) reckons it is the amount the skier needs to change fore/aft balance to cause the ski to lose grip at the tip or tail, a beginner/intermediate ski needing far less RoM than an advanced/expert ski. Which makes sense as beginners/intermediates are less likely to be able to tip skis to higher edge angles and it fits with the idea that more effort is needed to, say, be a little forward on a stiffer ski to unload the tail to displace it.

Personally, don't get to ski enough different skis to know.

 

[Philpug]

So what makes a ski beginner/intermediate vs expert?

Usually it is the use of less expensive materials that allow the brand to make the ski softer both in longitudinal and torsional flex.

 

[AlexisLD]

So what makes a ski beginner/intermediate vs expert?

Jurij Franko (former Elan ski designer) reckons it is the amount the skier needs to change fore/aft balance to cause the ski to lose grip at the tip or tail, a beginner/intermediate ski needing far less RoM than an advanced/expert ski. Which makes sense as beginners/intermediates are less likely to be able to tip skis to higher edge angles and it fits with the idea that more effort is needed to, say, be a little forward on a stiffer ski to unload the tail to displace it.

If I remember correctly, and if you listen carefully to what Jurij says, you will find that the level of torsional stiffness is what make a ski suitable for beginners/experts.

Take a look at this for the Mantra M6 and Blaze 86. It is not a perfect comparison (there are a few factors that are changing like the width and the mass), but it gives you an idea. I plotted the short and long length so that you can see how the lengths of each model scale. The Blaze 86 is marketed as an intermediate ski. The Mantra is an advanced/expert ski.

The bending stiffness differences between comparable lengths is about 15-20%. That is not very much. Bending stiffness is related to the speed limit of a ski, and if you think about it, the vast majority of people at resort ski at relatively comparable speed (beside a few chosen one).

The torsional stiffness differences between comparable lengths is however on the order of 60%. This makes a ski precise vs playful. A beginner doesn't want a precise ski. They don't have the skills to prevent catching an edge, or deal with the situation once it happens. Expert skier might want either precise/grippy or playful depending on the feel they are looking for.