Old School Straight Skiing Question.

[markojp]

Head Monster 88, 98, 108, augment AM 88, Long Cochise or 194 Sender Ti.... and modern SG or DH ski with no grooves, and stronger ski without a load of side cut. The freeride comp folks tend to ski straight and fast, etc.... etc... 189 Kore 99 like to go fast and doesn't mind not turning.

 

[bbbradley]

Let's have a list of modern skis that are happy to straight-line (or should I say schuss ) like the old centre-grooved skis were.

I've not been on a ski I've ever felt can't straight line.

 

[DanoT]

I've not been on a ski I've ever felt can't straight line.

I've demoed skis that want to turn more than I do.

 

[mdf]

I've not been on a ski I've ever felt can't straight line.

???
I vividly remember thinking that the skis wanted to wander all over the place when I switched from straight to shaped skis. I don't feel that way anymore because I've adapted, but I remember the feeling. It's a real thing.

 

[Ogg]

???
I vividly remember thinking that the skis wanted to wander all over the place when I switched from straight to shaped skis. I don't feel that way anymore because I've adapted, but I remember the feeling. It's a real thing.

Agreed. I found the "big adjustment" everyone talked about when I first started skiing "modern" skis was that they really wanted to be on edge and they would punish you if they weren't. Fortunately using the edges is a skill learned early as a NE skier.

 

[oldschoolskier]

The reason shaped skis give that twitchy (or punish) feeling is that tail edges drag and catch is when you cant the ski with out loading the ski to flex it trying to go on straight. It also occurred on old straight GS skis though not to that extreme. This again points to bad habits and/or poor technique (to be fair at an extremely precise level).

What needs to be refined is balance and edge feel (control). 360 drills and the like aid in learning this. It is not only side to side but also fore and aft that control this. How does it translate into running straight, you learn to to get the ski into a true flat state the the ski feel nervous (almost non tracking floating type feeling), don’t worry it does feel unsettling until you understand this is what you’ve achieved. Extend an arm to the side will initiate a turn as the skis are edged as you changed balance from neutral to one side, this is a good test. One of the best ways on old straights or modern skis is when going straight is if it feels like the ski is tracking you are not neutral and balanced.

Understand this and being able to do this not only ups your speed in the flats (improved gliding), it greatly increases your control in all other aspects of skiing as everything becomes more precise and controlled (instinctively).

 

[bbbradley]

How does it translate into running straight, you learn to to get the ski into a true flat state the the ski feel nervous (almost non tracking floating type feeling), don’t worry it does feel unsettling until you understand this is what you’ve achieved.

This is what I tried to achieve when on gliding sections of speed events (or long run outs to the lift). The subtle fore/aft/lateral balancing to let the skis run takes some practice.

 

[François Pugh]

No matter how good you are at balancing (a skill I used to be very good at) and keeping your skis flat, the hill isn't perfectly flat. The ski's edges will interact with the hill's imperfections due to the shape of the ski (side-cut radius). A ski with a 13 m side-cut radius will interact a lot more forcefully than one with a 70 m side-cut radius. If you're trying to ski straight down the fall line at a mile a minute with a 13-m side-cut radius ski, it's going to wobble.
I think side-cut radius is the primary factor. It's hard to say how much difference a centre groove makes; a deep linear base pattern could make a big difference, but at speed, the centre groove seems to me like the more effective approach (more interaction in the limited contact with the surface), but there must be a reason for it not being in the latest skis (besides ease of use by punters).

 

[Tony S]

The reason shaped skis give that twitchy (or punish) feeling is that tail edges drag and catch is when you cant the ski with out loading the ski to flex it trying to go on straight.

Too much coffee, maybe.

 

[ScotsSkier]

IIRC, the center groove had disappeared from skis well before shaped skis And yes, with multiple speed skis and Gs skis in the quiver i have not come across any issues of them not being happy to run straight. On a SL ski it takes a bit more focus.

 

[markojp]

No matter how good you are at balancing (a skill I used to be very good at) and keeping your skis flat, the hill isn't perfectly flat. The ski's edges will interact with the hill's imperfections due to the shape of the ski (side-cut radius). A ski with a 13 m side-cut radius will interact a lot more forcefully than one with a 70 m side-cut radius. If you're trying to ski straight down the fall line at a mile a minute with a 13-m side-cut radius ski, it's going to wobble.
I think side-cut radius is the primary factor. It's hard to say how much difference a centre groove makes; a deep linear base pattern could make a big difference, but at speed, the centre groove seems to me like the more effective approach (more interaction in the limited contact with the surface), but there must be a reason for it not being in the latest skis (besides ease of use by punters).

Center grooves... keep your day job. They aren't coming back. So can we talk about how doing DH's on SL skis probably isnt a wise idea, then use that broad brush example to describe the state of the entire industry?

 

[slow-line-fast]

Center grooves... keep your day job. They aren't coming back.

Why do we still have center grooves on xc skis, but they have been long gone from alpine skis? Not a snarky question, just suddenly wondering about this.

 

[markojp]

Why do we still have center grooves on xc skis, but they have been long gone from alpine skis? Not a snarky question, just suddenly wondering about this.

No metal edges maybe? Honestly don't know.

 

[markojp]

???
I vividly remember thinking that the skis wanted to wander all over the place when I switched from straight to shaped skis. I don't feel that way anymore because I've adapted, but I remember the feeling. It's a real thing.

FWIW, if you watch a top WC downhiller on flat gliding course sections, you'll notice their skis drift or swim a bit... because they're flat, and flat is fast... swimm'in is winn'in!

 

[oldschoolskier]

Oh I agree mach-schnell speeds on SL skis are a bad idea, even if you could be absolutely perfect in balance the side cuts withe tail edges are going to mess you up once you get past a certain speed, my guess is good amateurs that value is about 10mph slower than true professionals, where ever that number falls.

 

[mdf]

FWIW, if you watch a top WC downhiller on flat gliding course sections, you'll notice their skis drift or swim a bit... because they're flat, and flat is fast... swimm'in is winn'in!

Yep, that applies at more moderate speeds too. When I need max glide on a flat so I won't have to pole at the end, that's how I judge whether my skis are flat.
After all these years, that squirmy-ness doesn't bother me anymore. And my reactions if I mess up and catch an edge on those "flat" skis are instinctive now (which they need to be to be fast enough to save me).

 

[GregK]

From Tahoe trail

“The purpose of this groove (or multiple grooves in some cases) is to help the ski track in a straight line. This benign-looking feature provides directional stability by forcing snow up into the groove and compressing it into a small ridge for the ski to travel along.

It works in much the same way (although opposite in shape) as the keel of a boat. As cool as that groove is, though, it makes turning more challenging because you now have to fight against the directional stability it’s created.

You can find some backcountry cross-country skis (i.e. Madshus Epochs) that don’t feature center grooves. These skis were most likely designed with a better backcountry downhill experience in mind.”


If you want to go fast in a straight line, a double digit turn radius that starts with 2 is usually a good start.

 

[James]

I agree, center grooves disappeared before shape skis. My ‘96 Volkl straights have no groove. They kind of disappeared when stone grinding came in. Word was, whether it’s true or not, I don’t know, was the stone grinding obviated tbe need for the groove to break the suction. Now that may be a crock. It could just be there was really no need for a center groove. Or maybe it was good in soft snow.

I've not been on a ski I've ever felt can't straight line.

It’s pretty damn challenging doing it on a 165cm 11-13m slalom. But, I have to agree it can be done. Liking it is another thing. You’re really on the edge of disaster pushing 50 going straight. I’ve only done it in this one place where you need to make it uphill. Feels like just breathing is going to have you catch an edge and do a Wide World of Sports.

Hah, the year I demoed my first shaped skis, prob 99/2000 I must have tried 10 of them. At the end of the day I’d do a straight tuck down the sane trail. I didn’t want any damn shape ski that couldn’t go straight! So by the time I got to the last one, the Volkl P30rc with the plastic tip, I no longer cared about the straight run. Turning was so much fun. I think I did it anyway, but the results didn’t matter.

Figuring out the length was more important. I tried the 198 in that. Yikes. Should’ve gotten the 188, but got the 193cm P40 as the other was sold out. Not nearly as fun as the p30 rc.

 

[François Pugh]

I agree, center grooves disappeared before shape skis. My ‘96 Völkl straights have no groove. They kind of disappeared when stone grinding came in. Word was, whether it’s true or not, I don’t know, was the stone grinding obviated tbe need for the groove to break the suction. Now that may be a crock. It could just be there was really no need for a center groove. Or maybe it was good in soft snow.

It’s pretty damn challenging doing it on a 165cm 11-13m slalom. But, I have to agree it can be done. Liking it is another thing. You’re really on the edge of disaster pushing 50 going straight. I’ve only done it in this one place where you need to make it uphill. Feels like just breathing is going to have you catch an edge and do a Wide World of Sports.

Hah, the year I demoed my first shaped skis, prob 99/2000 I must have tried 10 of them. At the end of the day I’d do a straight tuck down the sane trail. I didn’t want any damn shape ski that couldn’t go straight! So by the time I got to the last one, the Völkl P30rc with the plastic tip, I no longer cared about the straight run. Turning was so much fun. I think I did it anyway, but the results didn’t matter.

Figuring out the length was more important. I tried the 198 in that. Yikes. Should’ve gotten the 188, but got the 193cm P40 as the other was sold out. Not nearly as fun as the p30 rc.

Interesting. I bet it would be pretty hard to stone grind a ski and preserve the center groove; eventually, after a few grinds, it would just be gone all-together.

 

[cantunamunch]

Why do we still have center grooves on xc skis, but they have been long gone from alpine skis? Not a snarky question, just suddenly wondering about this.

Don't forget the double camber. Unlike an alpine ski, when running flat with weight evenly split between skis, the midsection is intended to be off the snow.

In the analogy where the shovel and tail zones of an XC ski are comparable to front and back wheels of a car, the alpine ski is played by a tank tread.