Olympic Gold Racing and Training Approach

[Tom K.]

I have to say, this article on Jolanda Neff's approach to racing did my heart good.

Jolanda Neff Raced on 'Legs & Heart' Without a Bike Computer or Power Meter at the Tokyo Olympics - Pinkbike

"You will get fast by riding your bike not by producing some certain numbers."

www.pinkbike.com

In my 15 or so years of being a kinda big fish in the small pond of "old man mtb endurance racing" I vehemently eschewed data-driven racing and training.

Neff said!

 

[Primoz]

Current cycling obsession with power meters is really ridiculous. But it's so bad even something like this won't change it. Everyone are riding power meters without having slightest idea how useless that data even is, but if pros are running it, it has to be cool. Fact is, even for pros it's useless number in 90% of cases.
For HRM it's different thing, but once you have enough training behind you, you know exactly where you are, and you don't really need it, especially not for racing, and certainly not for racing like XCO is. I just felt like it's good day for some intervals yesterday, so I was doing several Z4 intervals. I didn't need to look at HRM at all during intervals, and when I came home and checked data every single 4min interval was constantly between 159-161bpm (Z4 for me is 154-162), regardless on terrain, as I was doing this running on forest trails going up and down and not on stadium. When you do this on regular basis as part of training, not like I'm doing 20 years after end of racing career just when I feel like doing them, you know even better to keep that tempo and you know exactly where you are even without all those devices. Back in my racing days, I have been using HRM on races, but always to analyze data after race, and never to race based on HRM. And in 90% of races I did push myself just right to be dead at finish line and not before, or to be still good at finish line.

 

[Tom K.]

^^^ Agreed, @Primoz. IMO, the main trouble with trying to use HR data during workouts is the lag, which can put you behind the curve.

I tried it in one 100 mile race ages ago (before power meters were a thing). I threw away my HR strap after that race, and reverted to the RPE approach.

 

[Primoz]

True, but that's basically for short intervals on max effort. Once you are on intervals with 2min or longer, those first few 20 or 30sec where you have HR lag doesn't matter all that much anymore. Most of people think power meters are solution for this issue, but they forgot, we are not machines, and exactly that it renders them pretty much useless, as I seriously doubt anyone made millions of test to determine his/her power limits in every possible conditions, as power at for example anaerobic limit is different at +10c as it's at +35c, it's different on good days and on bad days, and it's certainly different at 300m above sea level then it's at 3000m above sea level. And as, at least for me, most of mtb rides go from 300m to 2000m and above, I should actually calculate my power at certainl limit on the fly when climbing up But most of people don't bother with that. In best case they make one test and then stick to that power like it's holly grail.
HR is still better, as HR at lets say anaerobic limit is always same, regardless your mood, regardles your strain, regardless outside environment. Ok not always that someone won't pick on this, as it does change with training, but changes are in range of 1 or 2 beats through the year, and with regular tests, you are pretty much always spot on.

PS: Long mtb races with long climbs (30min+ in single constant climb) is actually only place where HRM would actually help with pacing. Short few minute climbs like XCO races have, is useless, and you should have that feel in you, especially on level that Neff is.

 

[Tom K.]

The biggest problem I ran into is that max HR while climbing declines in 11 hour races, and it's hard to do the zone math when you've been suffering that long!

At least mine did, on that long, stupidly muddy day. The last long climb was done at HR of only 147. Seemed stupid low, but I passed two more people, so.......

 

[Primoz]

I admit I never had any experience in racing for such long time. I would say longest race I had was some 3h on some of Worldloppet xc ski marathons, and one 4h mtb race. For that, it's race as usual with no issues , but I have absolutely no experience for something like 11h long and no idea how body behaves at such length.
But I would say it;s not that HR zones drift or change, it's just that you are so tired, that you can't go faster. I would say anaerobic limit is still where it normally is, but there's no way you would have enough energy to reach that limit, which is pretty normal anyway. Well trained body can sustain anaerobic levels for very short time, and then you run out of fuel muscles use for operation at anaerobic levels. So I would say that's reason for not being able to get over 147 not that limits would drift lower.

 

[Tom K.]

^^^ Could very well be. But I'll never know.

What I do know is that afterwords, I went back to RPE in racing and training, and never looked back. Even in a race environment, I had a pretty good knack for knowing where my "line" was for all day efforts, and hovering just below it.

That talent, and a couple dollars, will buy my an overpriced cup of designer coffee!

 

[martyg]

Most are painting with a really broad stroke here. PM and HRM are tools. And yes, you should have complete performance metabolic testing to establish where you are - not a FPT test in your basement - and a coach.

I'd be willing to bet that every athlete out there has used these devices at one point or another. For one, if your coach is remote, that is the only way that they can receive objective data about your training and provide intelligent feedback.

What you use, and how you use it, will also depend on your physiology. In my case I am all fast twitch. I don't need top end numbers. I am all top end. My HRM (and PM), for me, is a valuable tool for staying in a low output, aerobic zone. If I go hardish every day, I don't build speed. If I tool along at low output most of the time, and turn myself inside out 2X / week, I get really fast. I have to be at low output to feed the metabolic demands of the high output workouts. A HRM keeps me there.

In real life, Ned tends to not use power. Sepp does. So does Jr. World Champion Quinn Simmons. Most of our other elite cyclists trend towards data as well.

 

[Bruno Schull]

@Primoz--tell us about your racing experience? In what country/countries did you race? Road, mountain, track, cyclecross...all of the above? What were the categories like? How big were the fields? Where did you stand in the pack? Just curious.

 

[Primoz]

@Bruno Schull there's probably some missunderstanding I have never been racing with bike. Ok 2 or 3 mtb marathons and 2 XCO races for fun don't count as racing. My real racing career was on xc skis, not on bike

 

[Primoz]

In real life, Ned tends to not use power. Sepp does. So does Jr. World Champion Quinn Simmons. Most of our other elite cyclists trend towards data as well.

Honestly, with road cycling it doesn't really mean much what some pro athlete is doing or better to say, what people from outside think that pro athlete is doing. As I wrote, there's noone who would have all possible options tested, and noone bothers with that either, which on the end renders PM as completely useless tool. Sure it gives fancy graphs but except for looking cool, they are without much of real value. As I wrote before, power values at 300m above sea level and temperature of +35c are completely different thing then those at 2000m above sea level and at temperature of +15c. And these two places and temperatures, are perfectly normal to be during same ride. Noone is able to calculate corrections on the fly, and no PM does that on its own. So knowing your anaerobic threashold is at 400W at 300m above sea and at +22c doesn't really do much when you are climbing toward top of the hill at 2500m above sea level, as your anaerobic threshold at 2500m above sea is way under those 400W.
Why Sepp uses PM is pretty simple to answer... because everyone else does. I don't know for him, but I live in area where some of top pro tour riders live (Pogacar, Mohoric, Mezgec, Polanc...), and I ride from time to time with few of them on mtb (I did much more 2 or 3 years ago then nowadays but still). This way you see and hear things that are different what people imagine.
But in general I agree they trend toward data. Just different way then most of people think. Another thing is training vs. race. And even in race there's difference between for example XCO mtb race which is 1.5h or 30min road TT which are full gas events and 250km long flat TdF stage following hard 6h mountains stage previous day and looking toward 1h TT race next day.

 

[Bruno Schull]

Hi Primoz,

Oh, sorry, my misunderstanding I thought you had some some racing in your past. I raced bikes pretty seriously from about the age of 15 to my late twenties. Mostly road and track, some cyclecross, no mountain biking. Maybe that's why the only biking I do now (I'm 48) is easy pedaling on my mountain bike??? Mountain biking was always my place to just relax and enjoy the ride, so to speak. I raced mostly in California, a little on the East Coast, one summer in a camp in Italy (not with a sponsored team or anything like that). In the end, I was able to reach what I think of a "high level that a normal amateur can reach." I rode in the same pack with the pros and national team riders, but the gulf separating me from them was huge! I just hung on and tried not to get dropped. At smaller local races I could hope to place. I was mostly a sprinter, but that's all relative in cycling. Being a "sprinter" in a criterium, that lasts for 1.5 hours, or a road race that lasts for 3-4 hours, is not like being a "sprinter" on a track. I could never match the pure sprint specialists on the track, but I did well in larger mass-start track events. Racing in Italy was fun--some of the hardest races I ever did. I placed "fourth" several times. Even in the US, "fourth" was always my "favorite" place to finish...how many fourth places did I get??? Dozens! That's how I moved up through the categories--wit consistent mid-top ten finishes. And I was always happy with that! I just wanted to do OK. I guess that's why I didn't win more; real winners like to win--they need to win! Anyway, that's all water under the bridge now.

Power meters weren't really common when I was racing, but I did use a HR monitor, mostly to keep my easy efforts truly easy on recovery days, as one experienced rider pointed out above. I do think that training can become far too focused on numbers and devices, and I love that Jolanda Neff trains by feel, but power meters definitely have their place. For example, you can ride he same course at the same HR and cadence etc. and make small changes to your position or equipment and see how it effects power. The big teams do this a lot in wind tunnels. The best time trialing positions are not necessarily those that are the most aerodynamic--they are the those that strike the optimum balance between power and aerodynamics. Power meters make that kind of work much easier. Great tools, but, yes, probably overused and oversold. Go Jolanda Neff!!!

 

[oldschoolskier]

Current cycling obsession with power meters is really ridiculous. But it's so bad even something like this won't change it. Everyone are riding power meters without having slightest idea how useless that data even is, but if pros are running it, it has to be cool. Fact is, even for pros it's useless number in 90% of cases.
For HRM it's different thing, but once you have enough training behind you, you know exactly where you are, and you don't really need it, especially not for racing, and certainly not for racing like XCO is. I just felt like it's good day for some intervals yesterday, so I was doing several Z4 intervals. I didn't need to look at HRM at all during intervals, and when I came home and checked data every single 4min interval was constantly between 159-161bpm (Z4 for me is 154-162), regardless on terrain, as I was doing this running on forest trails going up and down and not on stadium. When you do this on regular basis as part of training, not like I'm doing 20 years after end of racing career just when I feel like doing them, you know even better to keep that tempo and you know exactly where you are even without all those devices. Back in my racing days, I have been using HRM on races, but always to analyze data after race, and never to race based on HRM. And in 90% of races I did push myself just right to be dead at finish line and not before, or to be still good at finish line.

As the saying goes a little good quality training, out performs excessive poor training (phrased to cover all sports).

Most, like you pointed out (regardless of the sport) including some high end coaches and athletes still don't yet grasp this concept.

Those that do rise to the top.

 

[Primoz]

@Bruno Schull as I wrote, I have never been racing bikes. I did race in xc skiing though. Started training at age of 6 and finished when I was 27. I have few national champion medals, I have been in national team for long time, but I never managed to qualify for Olympics or something similar, and that also means I never got medal on Olympics, so by "normal" people's standards, my career sucked. I did mostly European cup races, and even there I finished normally somewhere between 15 or 20, so yeah I never did anything good. I tried my best, and obviously that was my reach, so I don't have any bad feeling or unfulfilled dreams which would make me race now at age of 49 After I finished my racing career, I still go xc skiing a lot and I still enjoy xc skiing more then anything, but I never put start bib on again after I quit. I do this for fun nowadays and it's really good for me.
As for devices go, I have been training with HRM since late 1980s. If I remember right, I got my first Polar in 1986 or something like this, and I have HRM ever since. Nowadays, it's mostly to keep my head cool when I feel like pushing. Yeah I still do some interval trainings nowadays, but they are done without plan... when I feel like pushing, I do this. But keeping HRM on, it makes it a bit safer at my age So for training HRM is perfect tool, I totally agree about this. HR is the thing that really tells how your body reacts to this. Sure there are few caveats and it can't be used for all possible sorts of training, but in most cases, especially for endurance sport, it works great. I might wrote slightly misleading or wrong about PMs, when I wrote they are totally useless. They are not, and in few cases they can actually work better then HRMs for training, meaning mostly for training where HRMs are useless due HR lag (short sprint VO2max intervals). And of course, if people would actually figure this our and figure it out how to do things properly, they would be most usefull device for exactly that what you wrote. Changing position, testing new/different equipment etc. Most, if not all, use them other way, similar/same as you would use HRMs, but power meters and power values for humans can't be used same was as HR data.

 

[Bruno Schull]

@ Primoz--quick message, but, God, I'd say you had an amazing career! National team? National medals? European cup races? Awesome. An aerobic beast--all sucessfull cross country skiers are, and cyclists too.

And yes, we have both reached the point where we have to (start to) be carefull. Heart rate monitors can help with this, but I haven't worn a monitor in 25 years. I just try to stay as an easy conversational nose-breathing pace...generally following the Uphill Athlete training protocols.

I've always wanted to visit Slovenia to climb. I live in Switzerland. Do you ice climb?

All best,

Bruno

 

[Primoz]

@Bruno Schull from Switzerland it's very short trip to Slovenia. So you are more then welcome No climbing is one thing I just don't have enough courage to do. I do a little bit of "climbing" during winter, when I need to climb to top of the face, that I want to ski down, but that's not what people who really climb consider as climbing. I feel way more comfortable on skis then on crampons and with ice axes in hands