On hill collisions

[fatbob]

Cross post from the Ron LeMaster thread but wondered if its more appropriate separately

Regarding evidence from accidents and whether it can be expected victims ever get justice we discussed Ski Patrol's role as CSI and earlier posts mentioned dashcam type ideas

Actually, they kind of do. One of my friends that patrols that is her job. Pictures, measuring tape laser rangefinder, etc. certainly there is less evidence than on a paved road, but there is some evidence.

Thanks. I'd assumed that they captured some data to put into accident reports particularly with serious injuries or fatalities but imagined it varied by resort and resort policy as well as training of the individuals concerned. Very difficult I imagine to estimate incoming speed or level of control from ground level evidence particularly as tracks are rapidly skied over and the immediate vicinity trampled.

I don't know if wearing a rearward dashcam would actually help for those hit i.e. would the perspective be adequate to convey the physics involved - roads have the advantage of lane markings etc.

Just last month I had a near collision with a French Race coach in uniform etc on a thoroughfare piste in Val Thorens (from elsewhere - Clubs travel for late season snow). Wide piste serving most lower mountain lifts. Keeping a regular pattern of moderately paced turns toward the right hand side. His kids blow by me, some a little too close for comfort but hey race kids can be brats and they are more concerned with chasing each other than other users. Bringing up the rear he then cuts about 1ft in front of me and had I not been aware and hit the brakes we ould certainly have collided. When challenged he aggressively told me there was no Skier's code and that I'd turned the wrong way. Obviously I called him out on that BS and gesturing to the wider piste said to him - if people in your position of responsibility behave like that is it any wonder these other pricks have no consideration for others. Words can't really convey my anger at the time. That and another incident with a snowboard kid (late teen) making the decision to go for a 6 inch gap to the piste edge while there were acres to the other side left me feeling that accidents are forever inevitable. Curiously kid's mom decided to berate me for my anger rather than accept she'd done an appalling job raising him.

Reason for the anecdotes really is that I see myself being stuffed in either (near) accident had it been serious for reasons that of course a French Race Coach would be believed over a mere tourist and a mother's witness account triumph over actual facts.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

Sadly, I believe your conclusions are correct in that both the race coach and the mother would be considered eye witnesses. It’s not always as simple as “the uphill skier” is responsible. We’ve all been cut off by a merging skier who didn’t look uphill. I was hurt this season because of exactly that, but I also took responsibility because I was traveling too quickly to stop in time. I evaded her and had to fly off a lip and didn’t stick the landing. She was sweet and stopped to make sure I was ok. I guess my long winded point is this … if 2 of the skier’s codes were broken, isn’t it a no fault situation?

 

[Seldomski]

I follow the code, but I also add the assumption that no one else will follow the code. I've seen ski instructors yell at other instructors for taking up the entire width of a run for a drill. Even people who say they 'follow the code' screw up sometimes and make a judgement error - shit happens. I know I have screwed up a few times. Distracted skiing (like distracted driving) is definitely a thing.

I agree that a dash cam for skiers would not be fool proof. It's definitely a challenge to make something like that work. But I do think it would help in some collision cases and serve as a deterrent in others. I also know that a personal dash cam is way more likely to happen than the resorts putting cameras in problem areas.

 

[4ster]

In the US it is my observation that ski patrol does investigate all incidents thoroughly.

 

[ZionPow]

primarily to cover the respective ski areas ass

Ski Patrol conducts thorough incident investigations for the following reasons:

Identify risks pre-loss and prevent accidents
Document incidents to mitigate loss and litigation
Document incidents to assist guests who may be involved in litigation (Patrol expends a large number of resources documenting collisions to assist guests who may want to initiate litigation with other guests)
Promote safety by analyzing incident statistics and trends to prevent future incidents

Note: Patrol is not responsible to determine fault but to document the facts of the incident, just the facts, Ma'am.

 

[4ster]

Document incidents to assist guests who may be involved in litigation (Patrol expends a large number of resources documenting collisions to assist guests who may want to initiate litigation with other guests)

Glad to hear that! I will adjustment my post

 

[James]

Heh, when I got hit two years ago there was no investigation and I was working for the mountain. The only witness was an 11 yr old girl. The asteroid was knocked out for “a minute” and I was out for “5-10 minutes”. The asteroid, a large teen, skied away. I had no idea what happened till the next day when she told another instructor.

 

[ZionPow]

when I got hit two years ago there was no investigation and I was working for the mountain.

I am sure the investigation process varies at different resorts. The resort where I work and others that I have worked at during patrol exchange would definitely investigate a collision involving an employee and guest.

 

[pchewn]

Victims cannot expect true justice. At best, they might get some $$$. But that does not make up for injuries or death.

 

[pchewn]

In regards to on-hill collisions, requirement for those involved to stay and give information.

If you leave the scene of the collision, you have violated ORS (Oregon Revised Statute) 30.985 The penalty? The ski area may revoke your lift pass.

ORS 30.985
Duties of skiers​

(1)​

Skiers shall have duties which include but are not limited to the following:

(a)​

Skiers who ski in any area not designated for skiing within the permit area assume the inherent risks thereof.

(b)​

Skiers shall be the sole judges of the limits of their skills and their ability to meet and overcome the inherent risks of skiing and shall maintain reasonable control of speed and course.

(c)​

Skiers shall abide by the directions and instructions of the ski area operator.

(d)​

Skiers shall familiarize themselves with posted information on location and degree of difficulty of trails and slopes to the extent reasonably possible before skiing on any slope or trail.

(e)​

Skiers shall not cross the uphill track of any surface lift except at points clearly designated by the ski area operator.

(f)​

Skiers shall not overtake any other skier except in such a manner as to avoid contact and shall grant the right of way to the overtaken skier.

(g)​

Skiers shall yield to other skiers when entering a trail or starting downhill.

(h)​

Skiers must wear retention straps or other devices to prevent runaway skis.

(i)​

Skiers shall not board rope tows, wire rope tows, j-bars, t-bars, ski lifts or other similar devices unless they have sufficient ability to use the devices, and skiers shall follow any written or verbal instructions that are given regarding the devices.

(j)​

Skiers, when involved in a skiing accident, shall not depart from the ski area without leaving their names and addresses if reasonably possible.

(k)​

A skier who is injured should, if reasonably possible, give notice of the injury to the ski area operator before leaving the ski area.

(L)​

Skiers shall not embark or disembark from a ski lift except at designated areas or by the authority of the ski area operator.

(2)​

Violation of any of the duties of skiers set forth in subsection (1) of this section entitles the ski area operator to withdraw the violator’s privilege of skiing. [1979 c.665 §4]

 

[Tony S]

In regards to on-hill collisions, requirement for those involved to stay and give information.

If you leave the scene of the collision, you have violated ORS (Oregon Revised Statute) 30.985 The penalty? The ski area may revoke your lift pass.

Let's just be glad we don't have to ski in Texas.

 

[ThomasD]

Victims cannot expect true justice. At best, they might get some $$$. But that does not make up for injuries or death.

Sadly very true, but I also think it true that both parties can be partially victims and partially culprits.

It's pretty easy to assign blame when one party is stationary in a visible location and gets creamed by another who is out of control. When it is two people skiing in an otherwise controlled manner who inadvertently, if inattentively end up occupying the same space pointing the finger at only one one of them might not be so just. Immediately jumping into Perry Mason mode is not always the answer. Sometimes bad things really do happen to good people.

So perhaps sometimes - but certainly not all the time - we need to consider how much assumed risk we are accepting by choosing to share a slope with multiple other rapidly moving autonomous individuals. Perhaps more than we would like to admit or accept.

Most of my skiing of late has been in western NC. Many people on those slopes simply do not know how to ski properly linked turns (a combination of lack of skill/training coupled with the prevailing surface conditions), and likewise do not know how to deal with someone who is using the slope in that fashion. When I arrived to the area my attitude was "that was their problem." But the fact is there are a lot more of them than of me, and to some degree I needed to adjust my own behaviors to account for those prevailing behaviors.

We see lots of collisions, but few major injuries, largely because those involved are mostly travelling in the same relative direction meaning that the actual impact forces are relatively mild. Severe injury or death here typically involves contact with a fixed object (and lack of helmet.) One of the mixed blessings of crowded slopes is that you can never get the sort of separation and differing directions of travel that create true carnage.

 

[4ster]

Most of my skiing of late has been in western NC. Many people on those slopes simply do not know how to ski properly linked turns (a combination of lack of skill/training coupled with the prevailing surface conditions), and likewise do not know how to deal with someone who is using the slope in that fashion.

This just screams for the need to teach people to ski before just letting them loose!
SAM has put a lot of effort & resources into hiring & training traffic cops in recent years along with investing in signage, fencing & barriers to try & control the masses. Wouldn’t that money be better spent just making people more competent skiers & riders. It’s a win-win as everyone knows the more proficient we are at an activity the more fun we have & the more we want to do it!

When I arrived to the area my attitude was "that was their problem." But the fact is there are a lot more of them than of me, and to some degree I needed to adjust my own behaviors to account for those prevailing behaviors.

Until something changes self preservation is the only option

 

[Tony S]

SAM

What is SAM?

 

[fatbob]

Ski Area Management

 

[ThomasD]

This just screams for the need to teach people to ski before just letting them loose!
SAM has put a lot of effort & resources into hiring & training traffic cops in recent years along with investing in signage, fencing & barriers to try & control the masses. Wouldn’t that money be better spent just making people more competent skiers & riders. It’s a win-win as everyone knows the more proficient we are at an activity the more fun we have & the more we want to do it!

I could not agree more. Unfortunately I'm in charge of nothing.

It's sad too. Lessons at the local hills are amazingly inexpensive (at least relative to the big western resorts) - At Sugar private lessons are $70 an hour plus $30 more per additional person. So a small group of similarly skilled friends can really spread the cost and get a half day of learning (and NO lift lines) for not all that much relative to the total expense of being a skier.

But horses and water.

My own observations have been that it is a combination of factors - many don't see the need to improve (especially not given what they see from others on the mountain); some really are at the limits of their budget (heck our group - me, wife, two sons, and two girlfriends - started packing food last year because feeding six at the canteen was getting insane); and some just don't see the value proposition. I even had a hard time getting my sons to do lessons last year in preparation for our western trip. Their attitude was 'I'm doing fine so why take the time away from the fun.'

Then there are the real limits to what the mountain can impose on the customers without putting people off. They are all packed on weekends (and need to be in order to cover their nut) so how can they tell themselves they are doing things wrong?

 

[tball]

I don't know if wearing a rearward dashcam would actually help for those hit i.e. would the perspective be adequate to convey the physics involved - roads have the advantage of lane markings etc.

There are many 360-degree helmet cameras. They will catch a collision coming from any angle. It's pretty easy to turn on the camera at the top of a run and turn it off at the bottom. At least you'll have evidence, and one might be a deterrent to someone passing too closely.

 

[fatbob]

Yep - that's what I was thinking you would need and it feels overkill/paranoidmaybe for someone who really isn't interested in recording for other purposes.

I doubt the value as a deterrent as I simply don't think anyone intent on a risky pass or not noticing you/your movement patterns would even register the cam. Perhaps at the extreme those who were deliberately buzzing people for sport might learn to avoid cameras if a few peers had been pulled up by patrol/race club director etc.

 

[anders_nor]

I have my last colission on gopro 360.... skier never even stopped or made an attempt not to run me down
other skier was GF... filming with the 360, paying attention to filming, not.. everything else

why anyone would "buzz" someone for sport is.. well wow

 

[4ster]

Our local mountain puts on a safety week ever January where they promote the Responsibility Code, avalanche awareness, beacon park, dogs etc. This is mostly a Patrol event which is great but from what I’ve seen there is zero ski/ride school presence or involvement. Seems to me (& my POV may be biased) that this should be an event that promotes safe, controlled skiing/riding & a great missed opportunity to promote lessons