On hill collisions

[fatbob]

I think we're really getting to the heart of how hard it is to make the code comprehensive as every amendment tabled potentially creates a worse problem, maybe because we're trying to justify a gut feel that the boarder is more responsible here.

If I rewrote the code it would be someting like

1 Don't be a dick
2 Observe and avoid everyone else
3 Moving skiers have priority over stopped and joining skiers - so don't set off blind even if your instructor/ family/ friends have
4 You have no right to a lane or line
5 The skier further downhill or in the event of off camber trails the ahead skier has priority, you need to make sure you are looking both sides of your intended line to ensure it is clear
6 " It was an accident dude" is not a valid excuse

 

[Tony S]

Solved: Slow ski zones. A good idea, and works well if well monitored. But patrol is busy.

Sure. My point was that green trails should all be slow zones by default, even absent special markings on the trail map, signage, or etc. And that they should be called out in the code as having special rules.

I have seen cases where ski patrol addressed such transgressions with warnings and occasionally removing/suspending passes with flagrant/repeat cases. But they can't be everywhere all the time, and they have other jobs to do, and there is rather a balancing act with any such judgment.

Maybe it would be good to separate the medical care function from the policing function. In my view patrol is way too lenient with bad actors. Maybe it is because they feel the need to be seen as good guys so that when there is an accident patients will feel comfortable with their care. If so, someone else should have the enforcer role. On the other hand, if they are lenient because management says "be nice to the customers, even the dangerous bozos, so we can sell as many tickets as possible," then management doesn't understand this customer.

 

[slow-line-fast]

Not at all. You are travelling downhill -- look downhill. The nature of skiing is to constantly be making dramatic changes of directions. The skier code is great the way it is. People uphill should be looking downhill and avoiding everyone downhill from them. Skiers should be making numerous dramatic changes of directions -- it's called skiing.

Rotating to look uphill is technically poor skiing and puts you in more danger of hitting someone below you. (Because it puts you off balance, and because you're not looking where you are going).

One other thing: There should NEVER been any mention of "line" or "lane" in the skiers code. Lines and lanes simply do not exist.

Quoting as can't say it better.

 

[Tony S]

Don't be a dick

If only we could agree on what THAT entails.

 

[slow-line-fast]

Maybe it would be good to separate the medical care function from the policing function. In my view patrol is way too lenient with bad actors. Maybe it is because they feel the need to be seen as good guys so that when there is an accident patients will feel comfortable with their care. If so, someone else should have the enforcer role. On the other hand, if they are lenient because management says "be nice to the customers, even the dangerous bozos, so we can sell as many tickets as possible," then management doesn't understand this customer.

The level of 'safety watch' function does vary by resort management. I have also seen overly zealous.

I don't think safety watch functions and first responder functions are linked like this.

 

[David Chaus]

Put it another way if I come from behind you and cut immediately and unsuccessfully in front of you are you responsible? " You crashed into me bro!"



You've just written a rule that says straight liners have priority over those turning - take that one to the bunny hill.

No, I haven't. I said nothing about straight lining, or priorities. Staying in control is a priority. I stated moving with the flow of traffic, which is what the skier was doing, including turns, and the boarder was not, at the point of collision, moving with the flow of traffic. Now if these skiers and boarders were in a ski/board cross course, the flow of traffic would be very different.

And your hypothetical situation of coming up from behind and then cutting in front and claiming to be the victim isn't what happened here.

 

[slow-line-fast]

maybe because we're trying to justify a gut feel that the boarder is more responsible here.

Not a consensus among comments here.

I can't tell so much watching the video at normal speed, but it seems that the skier was uphill - if true, the skier (camera center) would be more at fault for not leaving enough space for skiers/riders below.

 

[4ster]

3 Moving skiers have priority over stopped and joining skiers - so don't set off blind even if your instructor/ family/ friends hav

I can’t count the number of times I’ve had stopped skiers look right at me & go anyway… (see your #1)

l would prelude any code with my new saying: “A skilled skier is a safe skier” (TM)

 

[Tony S]

l would prelude any code with my new saying: “A skilled skier is a safe skier” (TM)

 

[James]

Rotating to look uphill is technically poor skiing and puts you in more danger of hitting someone below you. (Because it puts you off balance, and because you're not looking where you are going).

If one is incapable of looking uphill when you cut significantly across a trail, you better not do it. It’s Russian roulette and only luck if you don’t get hit on a crowded trail. You don’t look away if the space in front of you is crowded.

l would prelude any code with my new saying: “A skilled skier is a safe skier”

Lol, depends on who’s doing the defining of skilled. How many “skilled” skiers, usually young males, are going way too fast to avoid or stop suddenly if needed in a crowd. Aiming well only gets you so far.

 

[Tony S]

l would prelude any code with my new saying: “A skilled skier is a safe skier” (TM)

Lol, depends on who’s doing the defining of skilled.

Clearly it's @4ster . Which is fine with me.

 

[4ster]

Watch closely the guy in the light blue jacket standing to the right. He looks right at us then instead of letting us pass, he goes. Of course now my attention is drawn to him & off the small hole in my path almost causing me to go over the bars!

 

[Andy Mink]

would prelude any code with my new saying: “A skilled skier is a safe skier” (TM)

Dude! So you don't want any new skiers on the hill? Boomer! (Sarcasm)

 

[wiread]

No, I haven't. I said nothing about straight lining, or priorities. Staying in control is a priority. I stated moving with the flow of traffic, which is what the skier was doing, including turns, and the boarder was not, at the point of collision, moving with the flow of traffic. Now if these skiers and boarders were in a ski/board cross course, the flow of traffic would be very different.

And your hypothetical situation of coming up from behind and then cutting in front and claiming to be the victim isn't what happened here.

it's a ski hill, not laned highway. There are stopped skiers, new skiers, fallen skiers, fast skiers, slow skiers, all the way across the hill skiers, straight down the hill skiers etc. You're responsible for what's downhill from you. The skier was completely oblivious. This is simple, avoid what is downhill. Every single one of those skiers should be completely safe on that hill as long as everyone is aware and avoids what is downhill from them.

 

[4ster]

Dude! So you don't want any new skiers on the hill? Boomer! (Sarcasm)

I have taught thousands of beginners who end up with better skills in a couple hours than many self-proclaimed experts

 

[ThomasD]

Maybe I just ski differently than everyone else. I don't care "who hit who" The skier pretty clearly came up from behind the boarder and the collision happened. The boarder wasn't overtaking a skier dowhill from them. You're responsible for what's downhill from you, look for it. The skier was completely oblivious. I don't think it needs to be any more difficult than that. If someone is turning uphill and runs into me, then i'm at fault for not recognizing them downhill from me in the first place. I've been driving and skiing a long time, my eyes can scan a pretty wide area with regularity and I don't think I'm particularly special in that regard other than I do it constantly whether i'm biking, driving, skiing, etc.

The verbiage has changed. Uphill and downhill are not the operative consideration. It's who is ahead of you that matters. And ahead is always determined by your direction of travel not your height on the slope.

I get that many of us are conditioned by a long pattern of thinking about what is below, but that needs to change.

The wider your turn, or the faster you traverse a slope the more you become responsible for looking up the slope at people who might be in your intended path.

 

[slow-line-fast]

Watch closely the guy in the light blue jacket standing to the right. He looks right at us then instead of letting us pass, he goes. Of course now my attention is drawn to him & off the small hole in my path almost causing me to go over the bars!
View attachment 170469

Many thanks for diverting us with a new video to argue about.

 

[Tony S]

The verbiage has changed. Uphill and downhill are not the operative consideration. It's who is ahead of you that matters. And ahead is always determined by your direction of travel not your height on the slope.

I get that many of us are conditioned by a long pattern of thinking about what is below, but that needs to change.

I want to agree with this, based on gut and some other things. However, it doesn't address my personal bugbear situation, which is this:
I'm heading toward the trees on skier right - left-footed turn, with the center of the slope on skier left, directly behind me. I transition to a right footed turn and start to look back toward the center of the run, on my left. No one there. (But note that I can't see the center of the run uphill of me from this position, because my skis are still pointed slightly toward the trees on skier right, early in my right-footed turn.) I collapse my left leg to tighten the radius of my turn and increase edge angle, accelerating left back toward the center of the run. SUDDENLY there is some dude directly ahead of me. Why? Because he was coming straight down the hill so fast that he wasn't visible to me a moment before. (He was WAY uphill at that point, where I couldn't see.) He just appears in my line of travel. But under the new rule it's MY fault if I hit him, because at this moment he's "ahead." See the issue? I don't have answers for this one.

 

[ThomasD]

I want to agree with this, based on gut and some other things. However, it doesn't address my personal bugbear situation, which is this:
I'm heading toward the trees on skier right - left-footed turn, with the center of the slope on skier left, directly behind me. I transition to a right footed turn and start to look back toward the center of the run, on my left. No one there. (But note that I can't see the center of the run uphill of me from this position, because my skis are still pointed slightly toward the trees on skier right, early in my right-footed turn.) I collapse my left leg to tighten the radius of my turn and increase edge angle, accelerating left back toward the center of the run. SUDDENLY there is some dude directly ahead of me. Why? Because he was coming straight down the hill so fast that he wasn't visible to me a moment before. (He was WAY uphill at that point, where I couldn't see.) He just appears in my line of travel. But under the new rule it's MY fault if I hit him, because at this moment he's "ahead." See the issue? I don't have answers for this one.

Yep, I agree it's a problem and limitation of the code. My personal opinion is that the code should also include some verbiage that higher speed equals higher duty.

So in your case the human bullet was simply passing too close to safely accommodate normal behaviors on the slope.

 

[slow-line-fast]

I want to agree with this, based on gut and some other things. However, it doesn't address my personal bugbear situation, which is this:
I'm heading toward the trees on skier right - left-footed turn, with the center of the slope on skier left, directly behind me. I transition to a right footed turn and start to look back toward the center of the run, on my left. No one there. (But note that I can't see the center of the run uphill of me from this position, because my skis are still pointed slightly toward the trees on skier right, early in my right-footed turn.) I collapse my left leg to tighten the radius of my turn and increase edge angle, accelerating left back toward the center of the run. SUDDENLY there is some dude directly ahead of me. Why? Because he was coming straight down the hill so fast that he wasn't visible to me a moment before. (He was WAY uphill at that point, where I couldn't see.) He just appears in my line of travel. But under the new rule it's MY fault if I hit him, because at this moment he's "ahead." See the issue? I don't have answers for this one.

Uphill skier failed to yield to downhill skier (you), failed to leave enough space when overtaking. The code is good as is.