Utah Park City Mountain Lift Upgrades Blocked

[James]

Unfortunately I don't know of a single mass transit system that is convenient. Even the subway in Manhattan is very inconvenient and it doesn't get much more population density than that.

Well that depends.
Reminds me of years ago trying to get my girlfriend to Newark airport at rush hour from the East Side. So, she’d signed up for a Super Shuttle van ride. They ran like every hour. Well, because of packing delays she kept cancelling the shuttle for the next one. Finally, they told her they wouldn’t pick her up because they couldn’t get her there in time. Of course I got the call.

At that time, the fastest way I knew was to get to Port Authority and take the bus. I know it sounds crazy, but I’d actually had gone from getting on the bus, to getting on the plane, in 25 minutes. (Before 9/11) The bus goes right into the tunnel.

I can’t remember how much time we had before the plane left, maybe 1 1/2 hrs? I know it was really pushing it no matter what. So, I said the only hope now was to get the subway across town to Port Authority, take the bus. Well, no way. We had to take a cab.

Completely hopeless. It was taking 15-20 minutes per block to go down 9th Ave, after however long it took to get across town. At that point one had to keep going to change the ticket to the next day’s flight. Arrived at Newark after plane had left, cab cost $80, which in 2000 was a lot. Went through the, “why I missed the plane” spiel at the counter, (I was not allowed to be present for extra sympathy from the agent), then look the train back!

It was from her I learned you could mail next day Express Mail at the main post office across from MSG by 9pm. (Delivered next day by 10am!) But, if you missed that…there was another option few knew about. The last deadline was 11pm at a drop off counter in the bowels of JFK airport. The cargo planes area. Did that run more than once. See, without a car, there’s no conversation about driving her out there. I suppose there is one about taking the subway to her, then taking a cab.

 

[KingGrump]

Well that depends.
Reminds me of years ago trying to get my girlfriend to Newark airport at rush hour from the East Side. So, she’d signed up for a Super Shuttle van ride. They ran like every hour. Well, because of packing delays she kept cancelling the shuttle for the next one. Finally, they told her they wouldn’t pick her up because they couldn’t get her there in time. Of course I got the call.

At that time, the fastest way I knew was to get to Port Authority and take the bus. I know it sounds crazy, but I’d actually had gone from getting on the bus, to getting on the plane, in 25 minutes. (Before 9/11) The bus goes right into the tunnel.

I can’t remember how much time we had before the plane left, maybe 1 1/2 hrs? I know it was really pushing it no matter what. So, I said the only hope now was to get the subway across town to Port Authority, take the bus. Well, no way. We had to take a cab.

Completely hopeless. It was taking 15-20 minutes per block to go down 9th Ave, after however long it took to get across town. At that point one had to keep going to change the ticket to the next day’s flight. Arrived at Newark after plane had left, cab cost $80, which in 2000 was a lot. Went through the, “why I missed the plane” spiel at the counter, (I was not allowed to be present for extra sympathy from the agent), then look the train back!

It was from her I learned you could mail next day Express Mail at the main post office across from MSG by 9pm. (Delivered next day by 10am!) But, if you missed that…there was another option few knew about. The last deadline was 11pm at a drop off counter in the bowels of JFK airport. The cargo planes area. Did that run more than once. See, without a car, there’s no conversation about driving her out there. I suppose there is one about taking the subway to her, then taking a cab.

Didn't know you dated Mamie's sister.

 

[ski otter 2]

For me, any kind of shared transportation is the enemy until Covid ends, which seems less and less likely. The longer the ride, and the more crowded, the greater the unnecessary - or at times necessary - risk.

For some people still, taxis, buses, trains, planes, etc., are not a convenience or a useful solution even at this point. They are just another higher risk situation, some folks weighing the odds, taking one's own council, putting one foot in front of the other; tuning out c*p.

And for many more others, it's been business as usual all along, "let's get on with it!"

Besides, even as a little kid, I disliked the air and smells - and feel - of bus rides, even when I liked all the people back then.

 

[Wilhelmson]

It’s usually a circular argument where you need more growth to fund excess spending so it never really ends. Put a desirable and destination city and outdoor resorts near a growing metro center with a large capacity airport and see what happens. Can’t really plan your way out of it, just plug the holes and try to keep up. National parks in the middle of nowhere need to limit visitors. What else can really be done long term other than capping capacity?

 

[Tricia]

Good for them. If the Park City municipal government is anything like ours, they are a bunch of clowns.

Tom Kelly said some positive things about it in his LinkedIn post

 

[blue]

Unfortunately I don't know of a single mass transit system that is convenient. Even the subway in Manhattan is very inconvenient and it doesn't get much more population density than that.

I’ve been to manhattan once. NY subway is in rough conditions.

 

[KingGrump]

I’ve been to manhattan once. NY subway is in rough conditions.

Driving around NYC is much rougher than the subway.

 

[blue]

Driving around NYC is much rougher than the subway.

I don’t envy the folks who drive there daily.

 

[Ogg]

I’ve been to manhattan once. NY subway is in rough conditions.

Sorry. As a someone who grew up in NYC in the '70s and '80s I find this humorous.

 

[blue]

Sorry. As a someone who grew up in NYC in the '70s and '80s I find this humorous.

Were they worse then? The subway is so loud with constant banging noise. Japan's subway is way better.

 

[Wade]

I don’t get the “NYC subway isn’t convenient” thing.

Is it loud? Smelly? Hot? Yep.

But it’s still far and away the best and most efficient way to get around the city at most times.

 

[KingGrump]

Were they worse then? The subway is so loud with constant banging noise. Japan's subway is way better.

Several order of magnitude worst.
Perhaps we can fire bomb NYC and start from scratch. New subway.

I don’t envy the folks who drive there daily.

When my son was learning how to drive. He called driving in NYC - close quarter combat.
It's really therapeutic once you get the knack. Rather entertaining.

 

[dbostedo]

Several order of magnitude worst.
Perhaps we can fire bomb NYC and start from scratch. New subway.



When my son was learning how to drive. He called driving in NYC - close quarter combat.
It's really therapeutic once you get the knack. Rather entertaining.

I will admit I've really enjoyed driving on FDR drive around 5 or 6 PM a few times... the only time I've cut people off with aplomb, and no guilt.

 

[KingGrump]

I will admit I've really enjoyed driving on FDR drive around 5 or 6 PM a few times... the only time I've cut people off with aplomb, and no guilt.

We used to race on the FDR on Friday and Saturday nights. Good memories.

 

[Tricia]

Reminds me of years ago trying to get my girlfriend to Newark airport

I'm still trying to wrap my head around @James having a girlfriend.

 

[Rudi Riet]

I don’t get the “NYC subway isn’t convenient” thing.

Is it loud? Smelly? Hot? Yep.

But it’s still far and away the best and most efficient way to get around the city at most times.

Agreed - though a bicycle is often faster in certain situations that don't require distances more than 5 miles.

Still: mass transit works. The whole idea of "convenience for the sake of convenience" - which is where the personal motor vehicle fits for many in an urban environment - is one that's fraught with contradictions. "It's convenient for me" is the refrain, but if enough individuals choose to drive their (often too large) cars/SUVs/trucks then there's an inefficient - and thus inconvenient - snarl of traffic.

A bus or train can carry more people in a smaller space at the same speed as each individual car. And in places where transit is given priority that equation gets tilted even more toward the bus or train. And the bicycle or micromobility device? It has similar levels of efficiency to the transit option in many instances.

I've taken transit to NYC area airports. One of the perks of where I live is that I can easily take a train or a bicycle to the airport, rather than driving there (that currently is the case for two of the three DC-area airports, with the third one coming online with Metrorail around Halloween this year). Is it faster to drive my car? To Dulles, yes. To BWI, it's a wash. To National, only if dropping off or picking up in the off-hours (parking negates any efficiency and is markedly more expensive).

(And to those wondering: yes, I have ridden a bike to National/DCA with a ski bag strapped to the rack. It's awkward but not at all bad. Heck: riding with my mom's liquor collection in a courier bag from Falls Church to DC was more awkward than riding with a ski bag strapped to a Capital Bikeshare rack.)

But to my original point: convenience isn't the end all, be all in terms of getting around if we look at the long term. We need to reduce the number of personal cars on the road, especially in areas where the geography is restrictive and where air quality matters. EVs will help a little but won't solve the traffic conundrum (and as mentioned before, their PM2.5 and PM10 emissions from tire and brake dust are big-time pollutants). Transit works when properly designed and funded.

Park City's bus system works well - and it could work even better. It's sad that the concept didn't cross the minds of either VR or the City Council.

 

[fatbob]

But to my original point: convenience isn't the end all, be all in terms of getting around if we look at the long term. We need to reduce the number of personal cars on the road, especially in areas where the geography is restrictive and where air quality matters. EVs will help a little but won't solve the traffic conundrum (and as mentioned before, their PM2.5 and PM10 emissions from tire and brake dust are big-time pollutants). Transit works when properly designed and funded.

Park City's bus system works well - and it could work even better. It's sad that the concept didn't cross the minds of either VR or the City Council.

While I think you're ultimately right I fear that the US is way too far gone in its use of the motor vehicle to ever pull back. It's a symbol of freedom at age 16 and the personal convenience factor predominates. Of course it doesn't help that public transport is viewed as the preserve of poor people and that people are sinking $$$ into lease payments on vehicles they damn well want to use. I'm definitely no saint - I've done ski trips that I could have done using transit where I rented a car for convenience and flexibility.

Things can be achieved where there is a will - I look at Aspen and their park n ride systems. Perhaps the most impressive operation being for the X games where when I went there was a continuous stream of shuttles from the remote lot, being buses taken from Zion and Bryce in their off seasons.

 

[James]

Well parking in Manhattan just keeps disappearing as every available lot is built on instead of parked on. And the street parking has really disappeared with bike lanes and all sorts of other things. Including restaurants during covid. So driving is certainly a lot more expensive because a lot is probably necessary.

What I liked about the subway living in nyc was you didn’t go back to the car. You went to the subway. And then you never quite knew what would happen. Of course in some areas the subway was far away.

I once went from hiking in the wilderness of Wyoming for two weeks to back in nyc. There are some similarities.

(And to those wondering: yes, I have ridden a bike to National/DCA with a ski bag strapped to the rack. It's awkward but not at all bad. Heck: riding with my mom's liquor collection in a courier bag from Falls Church to DC was more awkward than riding with a ski bag strapped to a Capital Bikeshare rack.)

I think what people are wondering is if the bike was still there when you came back to the airport after the trip.

 

[blue]

Still: mass transit works. The whole idea of "convenience for the sake of convenience" - which is where the personal motor vehicle fits for many in an urban environment - is one that's fraught with contradictions. "It's convenient for me" is the refrain, but if enough individuals choose to drive their (often too large) cars/SUVs/trucks then there's an inefficient - and thus inconvenient - snarl of traffic.

Depends on who you ask. Depends on the city. Twin Cities have some awfully time-consuming mass transit. If your home and destination happen to be along the light rail line, it's a wash between driving and light rail. God forbid if you have to transfer between multiple buses because that can more than triple your travel time. I just googled Brooklyn to Manhattan, even with 5 o clock traffic, mass transit only saves 10 minutes of travel time. When traffic isn't there, driving is actually 15 minutes quicker. I'm sure parking is a nightmare at NYC, but it's fairly easy at Minneapolis. We're not a dense city.

 

[mdf]

I would say the bus system in Aspen works.