Passenger All-Weather Tires with 3PMSF aka "4season" tires discussion

[cosmoliu]

YouTube's notifications just let me know about this new review of the CrossClimate2. His original CrossClimate review from a couple of years ago is posted further up this thread, I'm sure.I really like this guy's tyre reviews. I even watch his reviews of track tires because they're just fun.

 

[Chip]

I think there's some info on those tires in the Hybrids - The New Winter Tire thread. They're supposed to be good iirc. I've been running Falken Wildpeak AT3Ws year round on my Silverado for a couple of years and have been quite impressed with them in all sorts of conditions but there are newer designs that are supposed to be even better in the winter. @nay goes into it pretty extensively in that thread.

I am. They are OK. But I'm going back to Falken Wildpeak AT3W when they wear out as they are superior in most winter conditions IME.

Thanks for the feedback- so I looked into the Falkens and unfortunately they have very limited sizes and none that would work for my 4Runner

 

[Ogg]

Thanks for the feedback- so I looked into the Falkens and unfortunately they have very limited sizes and none that would work for my 4Runner

I'm surprised. What size tires do you need?

 

[tball]

Since I'm heading out to Utah/Colorado for about 4 weeks in Feb-Mar2022 I'm looking to purchase some new 3PMSF rated tires to start off with. I'm picking up some 'new' wheels today so these will not be my DD tires afterwards. I'll be taking my 2016 4Runner 4WD and I'll probably pick up a set of chains to throw in the back just in case.

Living in NC I don't drive that much in snow anymore, but growing up in NJ and skiing the NE for many years, I do have plenty of snow driving experience...

How often to do you plan on driving in snow?

If it's just for this trip, I wouldn't bother with 3PMS rated tires. Just get some new Michelin all-season tires. I'm not sure which are best in the snow (LTX, Defender, etc.?). When they are brand new, they are great in the snow. I've driven through a couple of CO winters without putting my snow tires with brand new Michelin all-season tires. After the tires are worn, the snow performance degrades substantially, especially relative to tires designed to perform in the snow for the life of the tire.

The 3PMS rating doesn't mean much. The tires just have to be 10 percent better than a reference all-season in snow. Very low bar.

If you look at the Consumer Reports rankings, the best all-season tires have the same excellent snow performance rating as dedicated snow tires. I've experienced this myself. Ice performance isn't as good, but acceptable. This is when the tires are new. The differential becomes dramatic after the tires are worn, but if you only need them for one trip or season, good all-season tires could be an option. This is coming from a guy currently storing 12 dedicated snow tires on rims and looking to buy 4 more!

 

[Chip]

I'm surprised. What size tires do you need?

265/70R17

 

[Chip]

How often to do you plan on driving in snow?

If it's just for this trip, I wouldn't bother with 3PMS rated tires. Just get some new Michelin all-season tires. I'm not sure which are best in the snow (LTX, Defender, etc.?). When they are brand new, they are great in the snow. I've driven through a couple of CO winters without putting my snow tires with brand new Michelin all-season tires. After the tires are worn, the snow performance degrades substantially, especially relative to tires designed to perform in the snow for the life of the tire.

The 3PMS rating doesn't mean much. The tires just have to be 10 percent better than a reference all-season in snow. Very low bar.

If you look at the Consumer Reports rankings, the best all-season tires have the same excellent snow performance rating as dedicated snow tires. I've experienced this myself. Ice performance isn't as good, but acceptable. This is when the tires are new. The differential becomes dramatic after the tires are worn, but if you only need them for one trip or season, good all-season tires could be an option. This is coming from a guy currently storing 12 dedicated snow tires on rims and looking to buy 4 more!

My understanding is that the tires need the 3PMSF rating during weather restrictions in Utah, but maybe the M&S rating is allowed with 4wd. So I don't want to be caught on this minor detail. No argument that the bar is set low to get the rating. In Colorado, this rating is not required. I will also pick up a set of chains to have with me just in case. Don't want to miss a big snow dump day because I can't get to the resort.
I just picked up a set of wheels to mount these tires on- I don't have an issue with storing more tires as I have about the same amount of spares as you for my wife's car, and my race car. The tires that are currently on the 4Runner still have plenty of life left in them, and these new (and improved) tires won't go to waste
Plus something with a little more aggressive tread looks really cool on the vehicle

 

[François Pugh]

If you look at the Consumer Reports rankings, the best all-season tires have the same excellent snow performance rating as dedicated snow tires. I've experienced this myself. Ice performance isn't as good, but acceptable. This is when the tires are new. The differential becomes dramatic after the tires are worn, but if you only need them for one trip or season, good all-season tires could be an option. This is coming from a guy currently storing 12 dedicated snow tires on rims and looking to buy 4 more!

You have to be careful with subjective ratings. Quite often the bar changes with the tire type. For example a Super high performance z-rated tire will rate 2 out of 5, but still perform better in the wet and dry summer time weather than a regular tire that gets rated 4 out of 5 because the regular tire is ranked "in its class". Best in class is not always best. Objective test data is better, even if still not perfect.

 

[Ogg]

265/70R17

It shows that size available in multiple load ranges on the Falken site.

 

[Chip]

It shows that size available in multiple load ranges on the Falken site.

You are correct- but didn't see it on tire rack- but it is one of the many sizes- Tire rack only had a few sizes available- strange.
I'll definitely look into these

 

[snwbrdr]

My understanding is that the tires need the 3PMSF rating during weather restrictions in Utah, but maybe the M&S rating is allowed with 4wd. So I don't want to be caught on this minor detail. No argument that the bar is set low to get the rating. In Colorado, this rating is not required. I will also pick up a set of chains to have with me just in case. Don't want to miss a big snow dump day because I can't get to the resort.
I just picked up a set of wheels to mount these tires on- I don't have an issue with storing more tires as I have about the same amount of spares as you for my wife's car, and my race car. The tires that are currently on the 4Runner still have plenty of life left in them, and these new (and improved) tires won't go to waste
Plus something with a little more aggressive tread looks really cool on the vehicle

The more restrictive controls in Utah are in the canyons areas, where Snowbird, Alta, and I think Solitude are.

2WD will require 3PMSF tires or chains. AWD/4WD can get away with M+S tires with sufficient depth.

CO, around the I-70 areas for the winter traction and chain controls, you just need M+S with sufficient depth (3/16") and carry chains in case they invoke chain controls before closing down the road.

Check the state's regulations ahead of time

 

[Ogg]

You are correct- but didn't see it on tire rack- but it is one of the many sizes- Tire rack only had a few sizes available- strange.
I'll definitely look into these

It looks like discount tire direct has them. They also have the Goodyear Wrangler Ultraterrains that are supposed to be even better in the winter. I just went to my local tire shop and they were able to get them the same day.

 

[Chip]

The more restrictive controls in Utah are in the canyons areas, where Snowbird, Alta, and I think Solitude are.

2WD will require 3PMSF tires or chains. AWD/4WD can get away with M+S tires with sufficient depth.

CO, around the I-70 areas for the winter traction and chain controls, you just need M+S with sufficient depth (3/16") and carry chains in case they invoke chain controls before closing down the road.

Check the state's regulations ahead of time

Yep, that’s what I read on the Utah and Colorado DOT sites also. So I’m not afraid of a little overkill for tires. But I’m not going full blown snow tires.
Since we’ll be skiing mostly LCC and BCC this winter I want to be setup for getting to and from the resorts in bad weather

 

[James]

What load range do you need?

I think @cantunamunch has the Continental Terrain Contact A/T. It was the best in Tire Rack except…winter.

 

[Ogg]

What load range do you need?

I think @cantunamunch has the Continental Terrain Contact A/T. It was the best in Tire Rack except…winter.

Need or want? The specs for my truck are standard or XL but I run E load 10 ply LTs which is arguably complete overkill but I load my truck up and am not shy about driving over stuff. I rarely get flats and the only time I wrecked a sidewall was a puncture at 75mph in the left lane of the LIE where I had to cross 3 lanes of traffic to get to the shoulder.

 

[James]

Need or want? The specs for my truck are standard or XL but I run E load 10 ply LTs which is arguably complete overkill but I load my truck up and am not shy about driving over stuff. I rarely get flats and the only time I wrecked a sidewall was a puncture at 75mph in the left lane of the LIE where I had to cross 3 lanes of traffic to get to the shoulder.

Do you have a big range from cold to warm pressure with that LT load range tire? Someone on Tire Rack was talking about 10lbs instead of 3-5.

 

[Ogg]

Do you have a big range from cold to warm pressure with that LT load range tire? Someone on Tire Rack was talking about 10lbs instead of 3-5.

It's significant but not quite 10 lbs. I'd say 5-8 on the coldest days. The sidewalls are so stiff that you don't really notice much difference on a 1/2 ton truck. The stiffer, heavier sidewalls also mean a harsher ride and more rotating mass which means reduced fuel economy and slightly reduced acceleration and braking,. I'm also running 285 70 17(33x11.5) vs the stock 265 70 17s which makes things worse. For my (ab)uses I find the tradeoff worth it but ymmv.

 

[nay]

Well there are two Subaru’s in my stable now, so hell has frozen over and it’s time for tires. The new 2021 Ascent Touring has 20” rims and because of that not enough tire to keep big hits from getting to the rim. In a bid to combine this thread with the “Hybrid” thread, Falken has made a true hybrid in the Wildpeak AT Trail that is specifically designed for crossover SUVs. I‘m dropping to an 18” rim and will run the 245/60R18 size that is stock on the more base model Ascents.

The AT Trail is designed to provide a beefier sidewall without the truck 3 ply weight keeping tire weight close to stock, while making nods to off-road (and therefore deeper snow) traction. It’s got the pretty mountain traction symbol, although Falken does say exactly what that means on their website. 65K treadlife warranty, stops better in wet and dry testing vs. the Michelin LTX, nice looking tire without trying too hard to make a car look like a truck while offering some intended purpose.

https://www.falkentire.com/wildpeak/attrail?gclid=Cj0KCQjwm9yJBhDTARIsABKIcGa-jvAEFh96i0CACzw7lyKteGkJQ-QeDLAoJ8B9sFM3S6jCsPeCXKkaAv0QEALw_wcB

My daughter is driving a 2015 Forester XT, not sure what I’m going to do there. May just go pure winter tires with that turbo and a young driver. We’ll see what I think of the Falken, but heavier vehicles put down more traction with this type of tire, so I’m not sure the comparison will work even though the Ascent is a big Forrester.

I am more than curious to test the vaunted symmetrical AWD on a tire that is very comparable traction wise to a “all weather” AT as compared to use on a 4x4 truck.

It’s going to be factory on the RAV4 and is pitched heavily to the Subaru crowd - good to see a class of tire start to emerge for a really popular class of vehicle. “All weather AT-lite”.

 

[James]

Should be interesting on the Ascent. It’s a large somewhat floaty car. I’ve driven my sister’s a bit. They’ll have to get stuck before I can convince them to get non all season tires though.

 

[nay]

Should be interesting on the Ascent. It’s a large somewhat floaty car. I’ve driven my sister’s a bit. They’ll have to get stuck before I can convince them to get non all season tires though.

I agree. I don’t care that much for the floaty suspension, but it really is a touring vehicle so I’m probably not going to do anything about it. The thing is a dream at high elevation, with the turbo and CVT it just eats the passes, you’d think you had a huge V8 and even then I think it’s better because it never hunts for a gear. The only thing you notice is any real throttle gets it gulping premium.

The Touring edition really is a luxury car, it’s kind of surprising for Sube how lux it is, but since it doesn’t really appreciate any kind of spirited driving nodding a bit to all terrain tire makes senses to me. I’ll use the paddle shifters for passing lane stuff, my wife won’t, so a tire that is suited for a 4,500 lb vehicle is really needed here. She absolutely loves it, though, and I’m sold that it’s a perfect mountain rig for a larger group. I wish it had the sport suspension that is on the Forrester XT, that’s a fun little car that can be driven pretty hard.

We’ll see, I get stuck all the time because I drive in ridiculous conditions, and it will be impossible for me to not fully test out this setup. The key is that ms. nay is comfortable and capable in any conditions she would drive it in - if she isn’t the Falkens will become the summer tire, but I think it’s going to be excellent.

 

[Ogg]

Those look like they would be a good option for my wife's Crosstrek. We've been running 2 sets of wheels/tires on it which is arguably overkill for a car that rarely leaves LI. Her summer tires are pretty well done and the winters have plenty of tread are getting a bit old I was thinking of going with a 3PMSF tire like a Crossclimate but I think an AT would be more appropriate and I'm a big believer in the more open tread design for the mixed winter conditions we get around here. It would also be nice not to have to swap them twice a year.