Passenger All-Weather Tires with 3PMSF aka "4season" tires discussion

[tball]

@Ken_R, for your consideration, I'd think about putting these on your 20" wheels:

4 Used 245 50 20 Nokian Hakkapeliitta8 SUV Tires 108T...

PRICE IS FIRM AT $550.00 CASH NO OFFERS NO TRADES PLEASE* These tires have approximately 12/32nds to 13/32nds of tread remaining, they come with 13/32nds when purchased new *each tire can be seen...

denver.craigslist.org

I bought a set of NOS Hakkas from the seller five or six years ago, and he was a good guy.

Then, look over the winter for some Ascent 18" take-off wheels to mount A/T tires. There's also a decent chance you'll find wheels with nearly new OEM tires. It's surprising how many people buy vehicles and swap the wheels and tires right away.

 

[Ken_R]

@Ken_R, for your consideration, I'd think about putting these on your 20" wheels:

4 Used 245 50 20 Nokian Hakkapeliitta8 SUV Tires 108T...

PRICE IS FIRM AT $550.00 CASH NO OFFERS NO TRADES PLEASE* These tires have approximately 12/32nds to 13/32nds of tread remaining, they come with 13/32nds when purchased new *each tire can be seen...

denver.craigslist.org

I bought a set of NOS Hakkas from the seller five or six years ago, and he was a good guy.

Then, look over the winter for some Ascent 18" take-off wheels to mount A/T tires. There's also a decent chance you'll find wheels with nearly new OEM tires. It's surprising how many people buy vehicles and swap the wheels and tires right away.

I have a set of Hakkas 8 SUV's (no studs)! Goin in next week. This will be their 3rd season but still look new. Awesome tires. The BFG's or Falkens are for shoulder season and Summer (long road trips)

 

[James]

Ok, I am sure @nay knows the answer to this:

I am between the new BFG Trail-Terrain and the Falken Wildpeak A/T Trail for my Subaru Ascent (20" wheels, i know i know, not buying new set) as an all year set of tires. Want increased puncture protection on mild trails and of course, really good performance on snow.

@nay is the expert on that, but it seems your best bet for that use is to get rid of the 20 inch rims and go with a higher profile tire on 18’s. Just use one set.

 

[tball]

@Ken_R I'd keep the 20-inch rims since they already have winter tires, and find 18s for the A/T tires.

That is what I did with my Sequoia. I put studded Hakkas on the 20s it came with and found some take-off 18s from a TRD Tundra with barely used Michelin AT/2s. I think I paid around $600 for the wheels and tires. Often when folks switch wheels, they just want to unload them.

 

[nay]

@nay is the expert on that, but it seems your best bet for that use is to get rid of the 20 inch rims and go with a higher profile tire on 18’s. Just use one set.

I would get the Falken. And the 18” rims .

Was driving up to Denver the other day in the not-quite-yet-toll lane and an Audi passed me so I figured that had the police covered and I followed. 95 mph, whisper quiet. Ms nay didn’t even notice.

The problem with 20” rims is the tires are so expensive that dropping rim size may pay for the rims over time, depending on the size you are running. I’m probably going to drop from 20” to 17” on my second gen Sequoia because the tires will be $150/ea cheaper (in a ~34” size). The 20” sizes are like $480/ea on average right now.

 

[scott43]

And really very large diameter rims are really just vanity.

 

[James]

Formula One- 13 inch rims for decades.

Vanity got them too this year. 18 inch-

Need to sell these-

 

[4ster]

I am running the new hybrid Vredestein Quatrac Pro 3pmsf allweather tire this season bay area to tahoe (75% warm highways, 25% mountain conditions) and made first trip last weekend.

I found an snowy/icy road in the morning to test, and hard brake tested much better than my prev half-worn pirelli scorpion plus all-seasons with only a slight abs kick in. On drive back in sections of steady rain and standing water, they plowed right through smoothly, I couldn't notice the water at all at the wheel.

So good tire, but I don't have extensive tire history to compare to though.

Mostly available via tirerack, highly rated, and on ConsumerReports GrandTouring picks this year, even without the winter testing. They are also very confident in 60degree temp, but noticeably squirmier then my worn pirellis, until I bumped +5psi see above.

Note: In the first 500 miles of wear in; they did feel sluggish/dragging from whatever nubs or blocks that were poking out until those got smoothed and worn to my car's alignment.

Getting back to wear where this thread began. My 2nd set of Vredestien Quatrac Pros are being mounted on my Golf-R as I write. I got 2 solid years out of the first set & about 20,000 miles which beat the 15,000 miles I had on the earlier set of Pirelli PZero 9's. I'm sure I could get some more miles on them but not sure the wear bars would allow me through chain control nor would I be really confident in their stopping ability!

For sure the tires where great the first winter but not nearly as grippy the 2nd, although after browsing through some of these threads that seems to be pretty typical. To be honest all of my vehicles since 1980 have been 4WD or AWD with manual transmission & even though I have had dedicated snow tires a couple of times, I have never had an issue getting where I need to go with All-Seasons.

My only real issue is getting back home from Powder Mountain when it is slick. During a lifetime of winter driving commuting over mountain passes in blizzard conditions, the Pow Mow road has created my most anxious moments. Only 5 miles but a 14% grade with a few sections at 17% !! Also most of my driving is in the western mountains where it does snow in the winter but roads are still probably snow free 90% of the time. I suppose I could do the separate rims with studded snow tires thing which I did (no studs) for a couple winters with my last car but I often find myself still traveling in snow till the end of May & then again as early as October. The fact that my car rarely leaves the garage in summer makes it hard for me to justify swapping wheels.

My question is... Should I be getting more miles driving fast on winding mountain roads? These tires are rated for almost twice the miles I am getting? I was close to sending the Pirellis back to Tire Rack for some warranty dollars but all the stipulation of even wear, proving 5K rotations, shipping & other PITA loopholes convinced me to just take the15% off on my first Vredestiens.
The set being mounted now are at Les Schwab & even though the old ones look good, I told them to just through them away.
@raytseng how have your Quatrac Pros treated you? TIA

 

[cantunamunch]

And really very large diameter rims are really just vanity.

Formula One- 13 inch rims for decades.



Vanity got them too this year. 18 inch-

Nothing to do with
- increasing suspension stiffness to make underfloor aero work
- lowering the energy cost of warmer blankets (70C from 100C),
- quicker warmups on the outlap to bring them closer to F2 performance after pitting
- leaving a heat gap between the brakes and the tire

... of course

 

[raytseng]

@raytseng how have your Quatrac Pros treated you? TIA

I actually just took off my Vredestien Quatrac Pro for CC2 during the Oct costco sale.
Over the 3years (no-swap) usage I put about ~30k miles on them, and worn to about 5.5/32 on 1 pair and 6.5/32 on the other.

There is actually a 6/32 wear bar marker in the tire, I assume to indicate end winter use. Once the pair started to hit that, the shoulder tread rubber started to tear and chunk a bit, and the tires did feel a little lumpy. If you look at used tires pics on Ebay, you will see on 6/32 tires a lot of the winter sipes smooth out to more slick tread.

Overall, the tires were fine for winter use, especially the first few seasons. On some very ice situations, it would lose traction, but I think all-allweather tires even when new, would also do that. I only got stuck once, but that was trying to go over a plowed berm, and more my fault of turtling the car-perhaps not necessarily a fault of the tires.

Some loss of MPG especially new compared to allseasons; and the tires were a little soft, so I did run with +3PSI. Given their softness, their sportier driver response is somewhat unremarkable, but just a safe peoplemover .
The new CC2s feel is considerably stiffer without the need to increase PSI, right now the cc2s run much smoother. They have more driver feedback-although it is different and I can feel the difference of the CC2 oval contact patch.

As far as my main reasons to change the tires; I think I could've squeaked another season out of it with the 6.5/32 pair up front. But with this auto economy you do not want to wreck, plus the timing of how long I plan to keep/use this car is to change now to get a few seasons on new CC2 tires rather than extend.

 

[James]

Nothing to do with
- increasing suspension stiffness to make underfloor aero work
- lowering the energy cost of warmer blankets (70C from 100C),
- quicker warmups on the outlap to bring them closer to F2 performance after pitting
- leaving a heat gap between the brakes and the tire

... of course

Of course, why not redesign everything?

Take the suspension out of the tire, you have to put it in the car. How you gonna sell tires with 2 inches of sidewall when they race with 8 inches? It’s a completely different thing. Plus they’re more relevant transfer of technology-maybe.

Either way, the tires are required to degrade from heat so you have pit stops.

 

[cantunamunch]

Of course, why not redesign everything?

The passing / dirty air reduction push pretty much meant exactly that.

Take the suspension out of the tire, you have to put it in the car.

Not really equivalent since a bouncy tire can't be fixed with suspension.

How you gonna sell tires with 2 inches of sidewall when they race with 8 inches? It’s a completely different thing. Plus they’re more relevant transfer of technology-maybe.

Meh. I'm not sure F1 sells, or even expects to sell, anything other than itself, merch and maybe some Red Bull on occasion, sometimes.

Either way, the tires are required to degrade from heat so you have pit stops.

Certainly, which is why I didn't list that as a benefit of change

 

[James]

I'm not sure F1 sells, or even expects to sell, anything other than itself, merch and maybe some Red Bull on occasion, sometimes.

Not F1, tire makers. Since there’s only 1, Pirelli.

Not really equivalent since a bouncy tire can't be fixed with suspension.

Misses the point entirely. Bounce on.

 

[nay]

My question is... Should I be getting more miles driving fast on winding mountain roads? These tires are rated for almost twice the miles I am getting? I was close to sending the Pirellis back to Tire Rack for some warranty dollars but all the stipulation of even wear, proving 5K rotations, shipping & other PITA loopholes convinced me to just take the15% off on my first Vredestiens.
The set being mounted now are at Les Schwab & even though the old ones look good, I told them to just through them away.
@raytseng how have your Quatrac Pros treated you? TIA

That’s terrible mileage. I have a 14% grade testing slope right by my house that turns into carmeggedon all the time - I like to stop halfway up when it is slick and the road is clear and then proceed. This is a very good test.

Currently 16,500 miles on the Falken ATs running on the 4,600 lb. Ascent - total wear is an even 2/32 across one winter and 1.5 summers.

Falken has patented ”3D Canyon” siping technology that keeps the tire smooth and stable at taller tread depths with siping through the entire tread for consistent performance as the tire wears.

Tire squirm is an enemy of tread life - looking at you winter tires - and a tire with AT characteristics will also have better heat dissipation technology at the shoulder of the tire. Falken has a patented ”3D Canyon” siping technology that keeps the tire smooth and stable with siping through the entire tread depth.

A quick visual here on a Falken all season that now uses this siping.

 

[crgildart]

Take the suspension out of the tire, you have to put it in the car. How you gonna sell tires with 2 inches of sidewall when they race with 8 inches? It’s a completely different thing. Plus they’re more relevant transfer of technology-maybe.

But... giant POTHOLES! Having fluffy tires on smaller rims will help you navigate the surface of the moon today's infrastructure delivers everyday..

 

[James]

…how have your Quatrac Pros treated you? TIA

I have put about 35k on some Vredestein Quatrac Pros. Didn’t really get a chance to test in snow. It’s an ok tire. Little disappointed in straight hydroplaning performance. Like going up a long hill with sheets of water coming down. Had to back down to relatively low speed. Though OI did go through the heaviest rain I've ever driven in. Shut down the Interstate. I was blowing by semis on the flat at 35mph.

Had problems with tires and slow leaks. One was re done 3 x. Sick of it at this point and just add air every week.

Wanted to go to the Nokian Wrg4, but they don’t make them in the size needed. I had the 3. Will likely go to CC2 before winter.

 

[tball]

My 2nd set of Vredestien Quatrac Pros are being mounted on my Golf-R as I write.

My question is... Should I be getting more miles driving fast on winding mountain roads? These tires are rated for almost twice the miles I am getting?

I bet if you ask the fun car crew, 20K miles isn't too bad for tires on a performance car driven fast.

Consumer Reports does on-road wear testing by caravaning identical vehicles. They estimate 65K for the Quatrac and a little better 85K for the CC2. I'm thinking the difference in your experience is your fun car and how you drive, plus not wanting to eke out the last miles going into winter.

Note that both are 3PMSF tires, and ice braking is the weakness for both. All tests I've seen seem consistent in needing to go with full-winter tires for ice performance.

 

[James]

I can’t see 85k for an all-weather car tire like the CC2. Divide by two at least if you want decent winter. We have a whole thread on that.

 

[tball]

I can’t see 85k for an all-weather car tire like the CC2. Divide by two at least if you want decent winter. We have a whole thread on that.

For sure. But remember that the CC2 is, first and foremost, the performance all-season tire in the Michelin lineup and is designed to have best-in-class treadwear.

 

[snwbrdr]

That’s terrible mileage. I have a 14% grade testing slope right by my house that turns into carmeggedon all the time - I like to stop halfway up when it is slick and the road is clear and then proceed. This is a very good test.

Currently 16,500 miles on the Falken ATs running on the 4,600 lb. Ascent - total wear is an even 2/32 across one winter and 1.5 summers.

Falken has patented ”3D Canyon” siping technology that keeps the tire smooth and stable at taller tread depths with siping through the entire tread for consistent performance as the tire wears.

Tire squirm is an enemy of tread life - looking at you winter tires - and a tire with AT characteristics will also have better heat dissipation technology at the shoulder of the tire. Falken has a patented ”3D Canyon” siping technology that keeps the tire smooth and stable with siping through the entire tread depth.

A quick visual here on a Falken all season that now uses this siping.

Canyon Sipe is nothing special. It has to have tread squirm in order for the 2 sides of the sipe to "lock" together to mimic a solid block. Other companies have their variations to do the same thing, and in many cases, less movement needed to lock together.