Passenger All-Weather Tires with 3PMSF aka "4season" tires discussion

[cantunamunch]

Except who is paying to have the population go to a winter driving course and take lessons? The backlog would be eternal. This is why the regulatory approach will always be passive safety systems like traction control and ABS.

The answer, of course, is to do it in sim as a player-funded game .

I mean it's all steer, brake and throttle by wire these days anyway, with mostly synthetic feedback

 

[sparty]

Modern vehicles have no feedback to the driver. Tires that provide feedback that conditions are deteriorating may be safer than tires that have a sudden limit, even if that limit is higher, because the driver doesn’t slow down with the higher absolute traction. This is one reason I prefer a really good all weather tire, you get feedback a lot sooner to slow down without losing forward traction capability.

it does depend on the vehicle. Take an F-150, leave it in 2WD, and get overzealous with the throttle—you'll get feedback, maybe even before the nannies kick in. If you switch to "AdvanceTrac Sport" mode, it actually drives rather nicely (i.e. it doesn't start interfering until I'm seriously into "screwing around because I can" territory). Having good tires (I prefer Nokian snows, YMMV) is definitely important for that feedback aspect—I agree 100% that I'd rather have a tire that gives me great feedback and 90% of the absolute grip over one that gives minimal feedback and 100% grip until it light-switches and I'm a passenger with a steering wheel in front of me.

Take a CrossTrek and hammer on it, and (IME) the only way you know it is slipping is if you see the little flashing light on the dash or if you manage to overwhelm the electronics and the tires and go looking for the ditch. That was with good, not great, snow tires, so I have no idea if better tires would've given real feedback or not, and it wasn't my car to try to spend a lot of time looking for that feedback.

Not knowing where the edge really is has two big downsides: you don't know if you're going too fast, and you don't know if you're going as fast as you reasonably can. I'm pretty sure that a fair number of the people I get stuck behind when the weather goes to crap don't have any idea how to find the edge of grip and thus just refuse to approach it. The ones that don't know how to find it and just go right past it are usually less of an issue, assuming they don't collect anyone else on their way off the roadway.

I still maintain that the correct first car is a 2WD pickup with a manual transmission (a real one, with a clutch, none of this modern stuff). Learn to drive that in slippery conditions and you should be able to adapt to just about anything else.

 

[scott43]

So first I would say drivers have to pay for the courses. Driving is a privilege. But yes, typically band-aid solutions are the gutless actions we fall to.

Second I agree very much with tire feedback provided you can actually interpret what's happening. Some tires especially when I was riding motorcycles have very specific behavior. Some tires do provide a wide feedback envelope where you're given plenty of warning about what's about to happen. Other tires have very small windows and are more... Particular. I simply think that without some formal training people won't have a clue what's happening.

So back to VSC and ABS to save the bacon ..

 

[François Pugh]

Except who is paying to have the population go to a winter driving course and take lessons? The backlog would be eternal. This is why the regulatory approach will always be passive safety systems like traction control and ABS.

People generally can’t learn how to drive in winter because the safety systems won’t let them, which is why people can’t control their vehicles when those systems fail.

Modern vehicles have no feedback to the driver. Tires that provide feedback that conditions are deteriorating may be safer than tires that have a sudden limit, even if that limit is higher, because the driver doesn’t slow down with the higher absolute traction. This is one reason I prefer a really good all weather tire, you get feedback a lot sooner to slow down without losing forward traction capability.

People I know in the insurance industry say things like “nobody knows how to even price car insurance right now” and “everybody is losing a lot of money”.

The first reason? “People are driving faster”. That’s an unintended consequence of the passive safety approach where the average driver in an average vehicle is driving at the perceived skill level of the vehicle that is being overstated by passive safety systems masking proper input.

Things are different in Ontario.

Learning to drive in winter by doing donuts in an empty parking lot can get you a "stunt driving" charge: vehicle impounded, lisence suspended on the spot. Possibility of a $10,000 (CAD) fine.

I have always found Michelin tires are very smooth and gradual in how they let go at the limit. Ditto for my Nokian Hakkapeliitta snows.

Both my Mazda 3 and my 2008 Chevy C6 let the tires slide a bit even with full traction control (including driver assist on the C6). The Mazda lets me slide a bit in the snow without turning the traction control off - the C6 will let the tires spin and the back end drift a bit in the wet, and in the dry when you lay into it.

And yes, the C6 is faster by about 40 mph than anything I drove as a teenager, but I don't see many people driving faster than I recollect folks were driving back in the '70s. In fact I see less speeding, and even slower drivers in bad weather conditions, except maybe for rain.

 

[cantunamunch]

Things are different in Ontario.

Learning to drive in winter by doing donuts in an empty parking lot can get you a "stunt driving" charge: vehicle impounded, lisence suspended on the spot. Possibility of a $10,000 (CAD) fine.

Give Andrew Younghusband a new series!

 

[nay]

Things are different in Ontario.

Learning to drive in winter by doing donuts in an empty parking lot can get you a "stunt driving" charge: vehicle impounded, lisence suspended on the spot. Possibility of a $10,000 (CAD) fine.

Yikes.

 

[tball]

^^^ Try stopping on ice like that from 50mph!

A year-round 3pmsf tire isn't going to help.

The solution:

 

[nay]

^^^ Try stopping on ice like that from 50mph!

A year-round 3pmsf tire isn't going to help.

The solution:

View attachment 184446

There’s a really steep hill leading to that spot and it was a no drama ascent and descent. That was this tire:

Which actually stops well on cold ice like we have in the inter mountain west because it will pull skiff off the ice until it grabs. No ABS here since it is turned off in 4WD.


And to demonstrate this is slippery as I almost eat it…


The mud tire pulls up the dry powder to create traction extremely well here, better than siping does in certain circumstances. This is why what you may choose in a high altitude continental climate could be very different than a maritime climate with high moisture combined with ice. This tire will just keep sliding (as will anything not studded to a certain extent) if the surface is wet and at pitch.

Watching CDOT continue to spend money turning snow into ice is of concern in Denver and up I-70, but I’m skiing off Rt 50 now and they just plow that corridor so ice is basically no concern except in my neighborhood where it gets pretty ugly on much steeper grades than we have in the mountains.

I’m generally satisfied as long as I can get around here with no issues. I’ve had more difficulty with a 2wd minivan and studded snows than any of my 4WD or Sube’s on all weather/rock crawling tires.

 

[Ken_R]

There’s a really steep hill leading to that spot and it was a no drama ascent and descent. That was this tire:

View attachment 184484



Which actually stops well on cold ice like we have in the inter mountain west because it will pull skiff off the ice until it grabs. No ABS here since it is turned off in 4WD.


And to demonstrate this is slippery as I almost eat it…


The mud tire pulls up the dry powder to create traction extremely well here, better than siping does in certain circumstances. This is why what you may choose in a high altitude continental climate could be very different than a maritime climate with high moisture combined with ice. This tire will just keep sliding (as will anything not studded to a certain extent) if the surface is wet and at pitch.

Watching CDOT continue to spend money turning snow into ice is of concern in Denver and up I-70, but I’m skiing off Rt 50 now and they just plow that corridor so ice is basically no concern except in my neighborhood where it gets pretty ugly on much steeper grades than we have in the mountains.

I’m generally satisfied as long as I can get around here with no issues. I’ve had more difficulty with a 2wd minivan and studded snows than any of my 4WD or Sube’s on all weather/rock crawling tires.

Those MTs probably have a very soft rubber compound right?

 

[tball]

Watching CDOT continue to spend money turning snow into ice is of concern in Denver and up I-70, but I’m skiing off Rt 50 now and they just plow that corridor so ice is basically no concern except in my neighborhood where it gets pretty ugly on much steeper grades than we have in the mountains.

I do worry about CDOT's difficulty staffing and inexperienced drivers, either because they are newly hired or shipped in from the other side of the state, impacting the quality of plowing on all highways, even those they are trying to keep safe.

Not to mention all the state highways where CDOT doesn't even try.

This was CO 287 through Broomfield this morning. A couple of inches of snow turned into ice because the road wasn't touched by CDOT.

The road condition dramatically changes on Sheridan, where Broomfield and Westminster crews worked the road.

Crossing Sheridan on CO 287:

And looking up Sheridan at Broomfield's work:

 

[nay]

Nitto enters chat.

Nomad Grappler | Crossover Terrain Tire | Nitto Tire

The Nomad Grappler is a versatile crossover-terrain tire for CUV's for those looking to get the most out of their vehicle to explore new destinations.

www.nittotire.com

 

[cantunamunch]

Nitto enters chat.

Nomad Grappler | Crossover Terrain Tire | Nitto Tire

The Nomad Grappler is a versatile crossover-terrain tire for CUV's for those looking to get the most out of their vehicle to explore new destinations.

www.nittotire.com

Eh, in this thread or the other one?

 

[tball]

Fantastic review of a worn CrossClimate 2 from Tire Reviews:



CC2 does amazingly well in the snow when worn. Dry handling and braking improve, as typical on a worn tire, and wet performance is where a worn tire takes a big hit.

Michelin has claimed they have been focusing on worn tire performance. It is great to see those efforts playing out in testing.

 

[cosmoliu]

^^^ Very timely post!

I just today drove up to Mammoth’s Main Lodge with exactly 5/32” tread on my now two year old CC2s. On a scale of 1-10 for what I’ve experienced in the last 20+ years for that stretch of road, I’d say that today it was a 7. I actually have a set of new CC2s at the tire shop to be mounted before a trip to Snowbird in a month. I’ve had this trip to Mammoth planned for a while and knew it would be a bit of a roll of the dice as to whether the road would be dry. For reasons I won’t get into, the car and the new tires are presently spending time in different cities, so I had no choice but to make the drive with the tires presently on the car.

Anyway, I was a tiny bit apprehensive when I pulled into Mammoth Lakes, but the drive was totally without drama. I even gunned the accelerator a couple of times to see if they would break loose. They did once once, with an immediate recovery.

Edit: After watching the entire video, I’d half consider keeping the old tires another season, if only I wouldn’t feel hugely guilty at asking the shop to send them back. However, a sketchy SR-210 up Little Cottonwood Canyon is WAY more scary than the road up to Main Lodge when equally sketchy.

 

[Tony]

I’ve been pleasantly surprised how well my BF Goodrich Advantage T/A Sport LT have worked this week at Tahoe. They are now on 3rd winter with more than 31K miles.

There has been a lot of snow in the past week and it’s a steep mile up back road to Heavenly’s tram. The first time I did it I passed a couple of vehicles that couldn’t make it and went about 25 mph to have a lot of momentum up the steepest part. The second time there was a car in between me and car that couldn’t make steep part. The guy in between wanted me to back up which I did not. Instead he went around stopped vehicles I was was able to get going from stop on steep snow-covered hill.

The driveway to our cabin also has a foot of packed snow, maybe more in places and while I sometimes spin getting through some of it, no problem. I’ve also been parking at Heavenly on packed snow against a big snow bank without problem.

I was wondering if I needed new tires before road trip to BC next month as I’d expected to be replacing now 20 year old Pilot with 291K miles last year, but now think I’ll be OK. The BF Goodrich Advantage T/A Sport LT still seem to give me less mpg that Michelins I used to run.

 

[bitflogger]

I am pretty sure I'll get a third set of the CrossClimate2 in coming days based on having them on two different vehicles and around 20,000 miles on one seat now for enough experience in hot, cold, snow, rain and mud to really know how great they are. FWIW, we have them in a conservative profile - the Outback - and low profile on a sporty car. That difference has helped us be so impressed by them.

Something really impressive is the first set with 20,000 miles is not losing the new tire magic or characteristics others have at that point.

 

[cosmoliu]

I had the my second set of CC2s installed this week. I still had 5/32" on the old set, but the timing seems to be just right with a drive up to Mammoth planned for early tomorrow, during a (relatively tame) storm. An additional reason for replacing them perhaps a tad before they are due is that this time around I am able to install the newly released oem 245/50/19 size for my car, rather than the originally released 235/55/19 size found to be the closest match. For my driving style, at least, I never really noticed the alternate size to have any shortcomings. But it will be interesting to see if I discern any difference getting back to the specified oem size.

 

[raytseng]

I had the my second set of CC2s installed this week. I still had 5/32" on the old set, but the timing seems to be just right with a drive up to Mammoth planned for early tomorrow, during a (relatively tame) storm. An additional reason for replacing them perhaps a tad before they are due is that this time around I am able to install the newly released oem 245/50/19 size for my car, rather than the originally released 235/55/19 size found to be the closest match. For my driving style, at least, I never really noticed the alternate size to have any shortcomings. But it will be interesting to see if I discern any difference getting back to the specified oem size.

See if you notice additional hits to mpg, from the tread being both full-depth and wider.

Give it 500miles for the tires to wear in, then start the tests!

 

[Chickenmonkey]

I’ve been pleasantly surprised how well my BF Goodrich Advantage T/A Sport LT have worked this week at Tahoe. They are now on 3rd winter with more than 31K miles.

There has been a lot of snow in the past week and it’s a steep mile up back road to Heavenly’s tram. The first time I did it I passed a couple of vehicles that couldn’t make it and went about 25 mph to have a lot of momentum up the steepest part. The second time there was a car in between me and car that couldn’t make steep part. The guy in between wanted me to back up which I did not. Instead he went around stopped vehicles I was was able to get going from stop on steep snow-covered hill.

The driveway to our cabin also has a foot of packed snow, maybe more in places and while I sometimes spin getting through some of it, no problem. I’ve also been parking at Heavenly on packed snow against a big snow bank without problem.

I was wondering if I needed new tires before road trip to BC next month as I’d expected to be replacing now 20 year old Pilot with 291K miles last year, but now think I’ll be OK. The BF Goodrich Advantage T/A Sport LT still seem to give me less mpg that Michelins I used to run.

I ran those for 3 years on my 2013 Highlander and they seemed to be a good balance between snow and wet highway performance for my needs driving up from the Bay Area.

 

[cosmoliu]

See if you notice additional hits to mpg, from the tread being both full-depth and wider.

Give it 500miles for the tires to wear in, then start the tests!

I'll do that. Watching the mpg is kind of an obsession of mine. The original set of CC2s did not affect the mpg one iota. 23.3 mpg before (20K starting with the original tires followed by Conti DWS06s) and 23.3 in the following 20K. I know that runs counter to most people's reported experience, but that's my story and I'm sticking with it.