Percentage of skiers that can carve a turn... way too small...

[geepers]

I read it a season or two ago. If your point is about skeletal stacking through greater use of inclination, then sure, for a small portion of the turn the use of your stacked bones will help reduce the muscle fatigue. However, no one skis an entire turn perfectly stacked. Muscle strength and reduced weight are going to win the day every time.

Quoting from the article:

In Diagram 6, the arrows signify roughly where the pressure will be at its greatest. This means that I need to be in a strongly inclined position (with appropriate angulation) at these points and what happens in between is not so important as the pressure I am dealing with is negligible or aligned with the direction my CoM is travelling.​

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So why do we need to ski the entire turn perfectly stacked?

Looping back up in the article:

The position in “Diagram 3” is very common among high level skiers and particularly candidates around level 3/4. This “over-angulation” is just as unbalanced and possibly more dangerous than if the skier were to incline or completely bank into the turn as in the first diagram. The ski is over edged and the centripetal force has to go somewhere as it is not opposed or balanced. This usually results in over straining of the leg muscles to deal with the pressure and failing that, the skis jetting out in front of the skier. Over angulation often feels like there is too much pressure or increased “g-force” through the turn. It can feel like leg muscles are struggling and your whole body is getting smaller. This struggle is not only uncomfortable, it also prevents the skier from moving further inside further and increase in edge angle and centripetal pressure. At slow speeds this position can be dealt with through muscular effort. The interesting thing is that most people would say that this is a good position.​

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And further down....

....being inclined enough.... The turning becomes extremely smooth. One can build more pressure due to the extreme edge angle of the outside ski and there is no struggle to be felt. That feeling of “g-force”, pressure, strength and struggle as felt in the over-angulated position was not there. It feels simple and easy because the forces are aligned and the skeletal system is doing its job.​

Working on toppling this past Australian season I experienced this relaxed, no struggle carving whilst making probably the best angles ever. Huge reduction in effort. Recommend trying it out.

 

[Guy in Shorts]

The older we get the harder we fall.

Find just the opposite to be true in my world. Pretty much can fall without injury or hard impact. Lifetime of practice. Time to go ski and try not to eat my own words.

 

[Tony S]

SV is fun.
From my experience, the term groom blacks are way over used. Most of them are actually more like dark blue. IMO, a groom black is a trail that becomes more challenging as the bumps are mowed down. Regulator Johnson at the Bird comes to mind. Hunziker and Main Street also qualify.

Good observation. I confess that when the surface is hard I have trouble figuring out how I want to ski runs like that. More honestly, I just don't like them. Soft fresh cord, different matter.

 

[fatbob]

SV is fun.
From my experience, the term groom blacks are way over used. Most of them are actually more like dark blue. IMO, a groom black is a trail that becomes more challenging as the bumps are mowed down. Regulator Johnson at the Bird comes to mind. Hunziker and Main Street also qualify.

Most US groomed blacks are at most a red run in Europe. They become serious when winch catting is involved.

 

[Mike King]

I'd be willing to bet that less than 25% of the instructors at Breckenridge can link carved turns!

I'll bet it is higher than that. Level 2 and above can do so. All of the level 1's probably not.

 

[Quandary]

I'll bet it is higher than that. Level 2 and above can do so. All of the level 1's probably not.

Way above 50% of the instructors at Breck have no rating at all. There are very few Level 2 or 3's.

 

[KevinF]

I'll bet it is higher than that. Level 2 and above can do so. All of the level 1's probably not.

Just because somebody has not shown interest in perusing their PSIA certification above L1 doesn't imply that they don't ski way above that level.

I have no insight into the skiing capabilities of the Breckenridge staff, but using certification level to discern skiing ability seems like a poor metric.

 

[Mike King]

Just because somebody has not shown interest in perusing their PSIA certification above L1 doesn't imply that they don't ski way above that level.

I have no insight into the skiing capabilities of the Breckenridge staff, but using certification level to discern skiing ability seems like a poor metric.

True, but to attain level 2, you need to be able to demonstrate skiing a carved medium radius turn. Thus, the comment.

Very few, if any, of Breckenridge's instructors do not have at least a level 1 certification. Based on my being a member of that ski school 6 seasons ago.

 

[anders_nor]

Our local black run isnt really black, but its so long and continous just dropping, you can hit 60+, they do use a winch on the cat though, but thats is because they bring the snow up.

When the snow is soft enough for engagement, and you can actually combined weight + speed to make the turn radius go down... yes!! that feeeling! stupid high edge angles and you know snow will hold you.

 

[slowrider]

True, but to attain level 2, you need to be able to demonstrate skiing a carved medium radius turn. Thus, the comment.

Very few, if any, of Breckenridge's instructors do not have at least a level 1 certification. Based on my being a member of that ski school 6 seasons ago.

Still doesn't mean that can not carve or are not advance skiers. They just don't buy into PSIA.

 

[Noodler]

Quoting from the article:

In Diagram 6, the arrows signify roughly where the pressure will be at its greatest. This means that I need to be in a strongly inclined position (with appropriate angulation) at these points and what happens in between is not so important as the pressure I am dealing with is negligible or aligned with the direction my CoM is travelling.​

​

View attachment 125690 ​

So why do we need to ski the entire turn perfectly stacked?

Looping back up in the article:

The position in “Diagram 3” is very common among high level skiers and particularly candidates around level 3/4. This “over-angulation” is just as unbalanced and possibly more dangerous than if the skier were to incline or completely bank into the turn as in the first diagram. The ski is over edged and the centripetal force has to go somewhere as it is not opposed or balanced. This usually results in over straining of the leg muscles to deal with the pressure and failing that, the skis jetting out in front of the skier. Over angulation often feels like there is too much pressure or increased “g-force” through the turn. It can feel like leg muscles are struggling and your whole body is getting smaller. This struggle is not only uncomfortable, it also prevents the skier from moving further inside further and increase in edge angle and centripetal pressure. At slow speeds this position can be dealt with through muscular effort. The interesting thing is that most people would say that this is a good position.​

​

View attachment 125689 ​

And further down....

....being inclined enough.... The turning becomes extremely smooth. One can build more pressure due to the extreme edge angle of the outside ski and there is no struggle to be felt. That feeling of “g-force”, pressure, strength and struggle as felt in the over-angulated position was not there. It feels simple and easy because the forces are aligned and the skeletal system is doing its job.​

Working on toppling this past Australian season I experienced this relaxed, no struggle carving whilst making probably the best angles ever. Huge reduction in effort. Recommend trying it out.

Paul says it right in this excerpt you quoted. He states that pressure is greatest in one phase of the turn. He does not state that others phases have NO pressure. So skeletal stacking will only get you so far if you're fat and weak...

 

[Goose]

For those talking about fit and weight and such.
Lets not forget that weight means more force (more G's). And fwiw so does ones height via adding leverage. Leverage can be both an asset or a liability for certain tasks. i think for the purpose we are discussing there is much more to consider when one creates alot of g's via weight (and over weight....out of fitness shape) and also perhaps being naturally taller. Higher centers of gravity should imo make for a bit more difficult balancing act. And then throw a lot of weight in the mix and you now have a lot of force and a finer window to balance it on especially while moving and swinging it all about.

This imo is also where conditions and finer tuned equipment can mean even more than they already do. More G's via more weight can help dig the edges in but when the conditions are crappy (as it gets more harder and more harder ice) the point of edge angle engagement becomes riskier as ones weight and leverage increase. The higher forces make the uncooperative conditions a higher risk.
If i said that in a way that made sense? LOL Im not 100% sure.

On another note the excess weight will place more work on muscles and result in less endurance whether stacked or not. i mean we walk balanced and stack, dont we? And heavy person (or a heavier version of one self) will always tire and or ware down faster before walking as far or for as long. and thats just the small task of walking as a minor example. Anything of course more physical that that and the same should hold true and be even more exaggerated.

 

[geepers]

Paul says it right in this excerpt you quoted. He states that pressure is greatest in one phase of the turn. He does not state that others phases have NO pressure. So skeletal stacking will only get you so far if you're fat and weak...

Ok. No problem. It's character building doing things the hard way. Besides, it's not my muscles doing your turns.

 

[Stephen Witkop]

So after spending WAY too much time reading all 14 pages I'll add my 2 cents.

After making some carved turns practicing my transition earlier this week I jumped into some of our tight eastern trees and needed to make a carved turn around a downed tree linked to a pivot on the tails to miss a stump that looked like a soft bump linked to a pivot off the tips to miss the rock showing in the trough followed by a wedge to squeeze between the trees with a skidding hockey stop at the exit with a big smile on my face.
Hopefully @KingGrump approves!

 

[anders_nor]

I carved greens today! (and red, blue, black) went from + to - weather fast like in 2 hour period hill froze over, and wowieeeeee skis were fast, could really gather speed at top of our biggest green run, and just lay trenches! most fun on a green this year for sure. Teaching a buddy, and he managed some serious edge angles at last (been struggeling on reds) but usually the run is just to slow. good day.

 

[Goose]

So after spending WAY too much time reading all 14 pages I'll add my 2 cents.

After making some carved turns practicing my transition earlier this week I jumped into some of our tight eastern trees and needed to make a carved turn around a downed tree linked to a pivot on the tails to miss a stump that looked like a soft bump linked to a pivot off the tips to miss the rock showing in the trough followed by a wedge to squeeze between the trees with a skidding hockey stop at the exit with a big smile on my face.
Hopefully @KingGrump approves!

Your forgot to add the triple backflip with a one and half twist into a graceful swan dive to score the perfect 10

 

[Goose]

Not doubting the weight strength thing.... Just wondering if you've read this?

https://www.paullorenzclinics.com/post/angulation-or-inclination-what-s-the-point

That was an interesting read. Although not highly educated I truly enjoy just about anything where physics comes into play in order to explain how/why a task (or anything) can work better. Im always of the belief the more I can understand why things are what they are it can only help to get more efficient at doing them vs just being told to do it this way or that way but never quite understanding why.

That said,...some are just sort of naturals at certain things, do it extremely well and dont need to know nor care to know. And of course so very many are not so efficient but have fun and also dont care. Its not at all for everyone to have to know or want to know. But I am one who does want to know and usually when i ski I like to be technically efficient as i can. Im far from it but for me thats how i have my fun a good percentage of the time so I enjoy this kind of talk and analyzing. Thats in part why I come and participate here.

 

[bob.knox]

Carving on skis is 99% feel. I have no idea how you teach that. If someone's body position is perfect, they still need to feel the edge hook up and rocket around, especially in East Coast mixed conditions.

I was an odd duck as a kid. I studied WC racers on TV like Tom Brady studies defences. Then out on the slopes I have always been inspired by good hardboot snowboarders laying trenches. I don't see them much anymore, but there is something soulful about the arcs they lay down. I wanted that feeling on skis.

Bob

 

[François Pugh]

Carving on skis is 99% feel. I have no idea how you teach that. If someone's body position is perfect, they still need to feel the edge hook up and rocket around, especially in East Coast mixed conditions.

I was an odd duck as a kid. I studied WC racers on TV like Tom Brady studies defences. Then out on the slopes I have always been inspired by good hardboot snowboarders laying trenches. I don't see them much anymore, but there is something soulful about the arcs they lay down. I wanted that feeling on skis.

Bob

Another odd duck here. I skipped the up-move, pivot to new steering angle and smear a turn lesson everybody else seems to have been taught at the time. Instead I just listened the the play-by play sports broadcasters and tried to ski cleanly without bringing up any spray from my skis, like Steve Podborski and Ken Read. I've had the arced turn down for decades, but I'm still trying really hard to improve my short radius non-arced turn, which I eventually got around to.

 

[Noodler]

Carving on skis is 99% feel. I have no idea how you teach that. If someone's body position is perfect, they still need to feel the edge hook up and rocket around, especially in East Coast mixed conditions.

I was an odd duck as a kid. I studied WC racers on TV like Tom Brady studies defences. Then out on the slopes I have always been inspired by good hardboot snowboarders laying trenches. I don't see them much anymore, but there is something soulful about the arcs they lay down. I wanted that feeling on skis.

Bob

And what is that "feel" really about? It's about pressure management. You're feeling what the snow surface is giving back. How you manage the pressure is critical to keeping the skis carving cleanly. On "hero" snow you can get away with murder, but other conditions will require more care.