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Sanity

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Watch Sebastian Michel's slalom turns:


Then his bump run:


See how they relate?

hint: it's about magnitude. Tipping the feet and lower leg. Managing pressure.

For weeks now lots of people here telling me how you need to have a pivotless transition for good skiing, and I'm saying you need to get weightless sometimes to pivot. This skiing above that Mike posted is too much catching air and pivoting before setting the edges for my tastes. I prefer to see more skis on the snow and less pivoting at the top of the turn than this.
 

Mike King

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Well, in my book, the highest level of groomed skiing is light through edge change. He's definitely that. And the skis are not pivoting prior to changing edges. In fact, there's very little pivot at all, as while he may establish a steering angle, the skis are pretty damn close to fully carved.

What PSIA-RM and at least IM (and probably all of the demo team) believes is that the skis should be "clean" through transition. If you are going to steer them, then they get steered AFTER the edges are changed. Sebastian is definitely doing that, as is Benni and Kolby.

And there aren't that many folk who can ski with the level of dynamism that exhibited by Beni and Sebastian...

Mike
 

Sanity

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Well, in my book, the highest level of groomed skiing is light through edge change. He's definitely that. And the skis are not pivoting prior to changing edges. In fact, there's very little pivot at all, as while he may establish a steering angle, the skis are pretty damn close to fully carved.

What PSIA-RM and at least IM (and probably all of the demo team) believes is that the skis should be "clean" through transition. If you are going to steer them, then they get steered AFTER the edges are changed. Sebastian is definitely doing that, as is Benni and Kolby.

And there aren't that many folk who can ski with the level of dynamism that exhibited by Beni and Sebastian...

Mike
True on many accounts, but there's a big steering angle after he catches air. Do a series of still shots highlighting the angle, and you'll see.
 

Mike King

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look at the tracks in this photo -- see any smeared track from a pivoted ski? Nope...

Screen Shot 2021-05-03 at 4.03.48 PM.png
 

François Pugh

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As far as the Benni Walsh skiing (except for the instagram ones; I don't have instagram), Yes it's the same, only different. :ogbiggrin: Same, but not same same.

It's a traditional short radius turn, not an arc-2-arc turn: tipping and engaging the edges is the same (not tipped enough to lock them in though, still engaged and providing a reaction force), sneaky rotary input via inside foot pull-back, weight transfer to new outside ski and ski tipping (while edges not locked in) is different.

Front edges do get put down on the downhill side of many of the bumps, but not until his feet clear the uphill side of the bump, so yes a lot of the time edges are in the air. Bump skiing 101: heels to but cheeks as you crest the bump, nothing new here.

One of the hardest things I had to learn when I first started trying to learn proper bump skiing ~15 years ago was to slow down a lot more after I had already slowed down to what seemed to me at the time to be an incredibly slow speed. Competition bump skiers may ski at ~30 mph (IIRC), but they get points for speed; we don't.
 

tball

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One of the hardest things I had to learn when I first started trying to learn proper bump skiing ~15 years ago was to slow down a lot more after I had already slowed down to what seemed to me at the time to be an incredibly slow speed. Competition bump skiers may ski at ~30 mph (IIRC), but they get points for speed; we don't.
Speaking of speed I got some awesome speed data in the bumps at A-basin Friday.

You had asked about my GPS settings on the previous data I posted. It was set to "smart recording" which tries to be smart about how often it records. I set it to 1 second for Friday so the data should be a bit better. The reality is they look similar, so maybe Garmin is smart about it.

I'll post the data when I have a chance. Spoiler: I'm slow in the bumps. The good news is slow is fast enough to get a few hoots from the lift. :ogbiggrin:
 

tball

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Watch Sebastian Michel's slalom turns:


Then his bump run:


See how they relate?

hint: it's about magnitude. Tipping the feet and lower leg. Managing pressure.
Thank you, Mike. That helps me see it. Great skiing there.
 

tball

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In this era, instead of arguing subjectively over how generally steep specific slopes are, people should just use websites that show gradients like the below plus a resort trail map. Generally many skiers have always tended to overestimate actual gradients of steeper slopes so usual blabbering without actual doing that basic homework is likely to be embarrassing. This shows Chute 75 and Westface (JR) at Squaw that average a bit less than 80% grade.


And here are the Slide chutes at Mt Rose:

The limitation is USGS elevation lines are usually every 40 feet of vertical so between those lines smaller features may be either more or less steeper. Additionally drifting snows at ridge lines and terrain knees may cornice on lee sides and fill in hollows which in any case tend to be smaller features. Note on caltopo given a paid account, one can also program any colors and assign gradients and I've played around some creating ski resort maps at 10% grade increments.
Thanks, @SSSdave, caltopo works better than some other tools I've played with in the past.

Actually, I just talked with the skier in the vid. He says that the run is Dreamcatcher, which is the run underneath the Lake lift at YC. Apparently it is a 40+ degree pitch.

Here's Dreamcatcher at Yellowstone Club:

CalTopo - Dreamcatcher2.png


Here's the Nacho at Copper Mountain:

CalTopo -Taco.png

 
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Chris V.

Making fresh tracks
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In this era, instead of arguing subjectively over how generally steep specific slopes are, people should just use websites that show gradients like the below plus a resort trail map. Generally many skiers have always tended to overestimate actual gradients of steeper slopes so usual blabbering without actual doing that basic homework is likely to be embarrassing. This shows Chute 75 and Westface (JR) at Squaw that average a bit less than 80% grade.

Well, this is fun. Since we started with talking about groomed runs....

o At Squaw, the top bit of the main run off Granite Chief is about 35 deg. for a while. That might be the Tahoe champ for sustained pitch.

o The run down the middle of the valley skier's left of Oly Lady gets groomed occasionally--not often--and it's a bit steeper.

o The top of D-8 at Alpine Meadows starts out at 35 deg. plus.

o At Sugar Bowl, some of the runs off the east side of Disney that get groomed from time to time are right around 35 deg., going on that way for a long distance.

o Moving south, the first part of Cornice at Mammoth Mtn. is something like 40 deg. Those who have been there know that what makes that run really interesting is that it often gets quite firm and wind polished, and might have bits of pumice embedded in it. Plus you'll be dodging traffic (some of it out of control) the whole way down.

Anything really steep in the Sierra Nevada will be ungroomed. It's pretty much the sky is the limit, as the common dumps of Sierra cement adhere to steep terrain so well, setting up a base in spots that would be unskiable in Rocky Mtn. powder. Of course, you can always find 90 deg. plus if you look around. They're called "cliffs." Or plenty of other drops through short chutes. Some standouts for larger patches of steep terrain skiable by mere mortals:

o Squaw: The Palisades, of course--the drops pretty much all start off at about 50 deg., where there's snow and not just air. Sometimes overlooked is Upper Sun Bowl, which starts out just about as steep and continues as a much longer sustained steep run. The Slot goes on for a while at the upper end of the 35 to 45 deg. range. Classic Chute is close to 50 deg. and narrow. 50 deg. plus chutes off Granite Chief Peak. Chute 75 is close to 45 deg. for a long time. No shortage of lines pushing or exceeding 50 deg. at the maximum off Oly Lady. Poulsens Gully has some seriously steep entries. Silverado just keeps coming at you, with short 45 deg. pitches all but unavoidable. Etc., etc.

o The Palisades at Sugar Bowl are the real deal--easy to get cliffed out there, and the fun continues throughout the continuation of the same cliff band east across Silver Belt and beyond. The steepest parts are short, but plenty steep.

o Alpine Meadows--The Keyhole area is tops here, with 50 deg. spots in all lines. The topmost part of High Yellow Face (above where the Our Father traverse comes in) is nearly as steep, and to make it even more fun has a blind rollover.

o Mt. Rose--The Chutes stand out on the map as probably the largest solid block of lift-served terrain in the 40 deg. range in the Tahoe area. (Even Miller Time.)

o Heavenly--Killebrew Canyon takes things to the next level, much of it right around 45 deg., plus or minus.

o Mammoth Mtn.--You know. It goes on and on. Hangmans Hollow shows at topping out around 50 deg.

Not to overlook Sierra-at-Tahoe and Kirkwood--they have their moments!
 
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razie

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I can carve just fine at 0.1 mph - just like anyone gliding on flats can attest to, why the need for speed? The turn radius differs and the impulse available, otherwise speed doesn't factor into it much... Even big angles are available at low speeds - they may look a bit funny but very possible
 

Sanity

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I can carve just fine at 0.1 mph - just like anyone gliding on flats can attest to, why the need for speed? The turn radius differs and the impulse available, otherwise speed doesn't factor into it much... Even big angles are available at low speeds - they may look a bit funny but very possible
Can you go 0.1 mph and carve (or whatever you want to call it) with an edge angle of 50 degrees? That's what it takes at least (maybe even 70 degrees) for a pivot less transition on a steep slope at the top of the turn. Though, I really did rest my case with the steep stuff, and we moved on to moguls.
 

razie

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Can you go 0.1 mph and carve (or whatever you want to call it) with an edge angle of 50 degrees? That's what it takes at least (maybe even 70 degrees) for a pivot less transition on a steep slope at the top of the turn. Though, I really did rest my case with the steep stuff, and we moved on to moguls.

But yes, of course that me or anyone with a bit of flexibility can do that... you'd have to understand how we can use the body in skiing in many situations though ;)

The more interesting question is how do you go 0.1 mph on a steep slope or why are we bothering with this contortionary math, still?

But maybe I missed it... which case did you rest on the steep stuff? That there is stuff out there somewhere that's too steep for sane people at a certain level of technique and skill mastery to ski "cleanly" on? Did we need so many pages for that? Yes, the better you ski, the more terrain you can ski cleanly. If you don't want to ski cleanly, you don't have to. If you can't, then certainly you won't and arguing that the grapes are sour is just that: arguing that the grapes are sour... while trying to put numbers on various skiers ability is already being done in technical competitions, should you feel inclined, no need to calculate a gradient at which his or her technique degrades...

Bumps are similar. There's many bumps shapes and sizes and conditions and many lines available and many skill levels. Whether the ski tail slides on the side or backside a bit because you applied more pressure early is as irrelevant as in a good short turn - what is relevant is how much did you or did you not forcefully pivot the skis, that's the point Mike is trying to make and the relevant point. In fact, if you look it up, pivoting per se (i.e. rotating the ski manually) only works with a flat ski. Other techniques are applicable should you need to redirect or oversteer more than the... let's call it "natural arc" of the turn.

One of my favorite skiers does double turns on every other bump top and it's totally fine, he's not breaking any "rules", he's just having fun and he's smoking at it... I've not seen bumps skied better than that, tbh. At that skill level, he's also carving bumps just fine and he couldn't care less about the percentage of carving. To Jim's point - he is a former racer, indeed ;)
 
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François Pugh

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I think the definition of carve is coming up again.

If you stop and flatten your skis on a 50 degree slope (tip them so the are at 50 degrees from horizontal and parallel to the slope) while they are pointing straight across the fall line, they will slide down the hill. If you have your downhill edges engaged and not sliding down the hill, while gravity is trying to get you to slide down the hill, you will end up going down the hill without the ski going down the hill, pivoting as it were about a different axis.

In order not to do that you need to have built up some momentum up the hill, or have some turn force going on. Certainly possible on a 50 degree slope, but not easy to do and many people can't. Variables are angle of skis pointing across the fall line, slope angle, turn size, instantaneous speed and direction (of skis and of body -separate paths). There are plenty of folk who can't or won't ski 15 mph in steep moguls. There are lots of people who end up finishing their turns in moguls with their skis 90 degrees to the fall line. Carving, sure, but not if you mean arc-2-arc carving. Pure arc-2-arc carving brings speed, and even if you can do it, you eventually realize that you don't want to do it; the novelty of bouncing off every third mogul at high speeds like a pin ball in an arcade game soon wears off.
 

Sanity

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But yes, of course that me or anyone with a bit of flexibility can do that... you'd have to understand how we can use the body in skiing in many situations though ;)

The more interesting question is how do you go 0.1 mph on a steep slope or why are we bothering with this contortionary math, still?

But maybe I missed it... which case did you rest on the steep stuff? That there is stuff out there somewhere that's too steep for sane people at a certain level of technique and skill mastery to ski "cleanly" on? Did we need so many pages for that? Yes, the better you ski, the more terrain you can ski cleanly. If you don't want to ski cleanly, you don't have to. If you can't, then certainly you won't and arguing that the grapes are sour is just that: arguing that the grapes are sour... while trying to put numbers on various skiers ability is already being done in technical competitions, should you feel inclined, no need to calculate a gradient at which his or her technique degrades...

Bumps are similar. There's many bumps shapes and sizes and conditions and many lines available and many skill levels. Whether the ski tail slides on the side or backside a bit because you applied more pressure early is as irrelevant as in a good short turn - what is relevant is how much did you or did you not forcefully pivot the skis, that's the point Mike is trying to make and the relevant point. In fact, if you look it up, pivoting per se (i.e. rotating the ski manually) only works with a flat ski. Other techniques are applicable should you need to redirect or oversteer more than the... let's call it "natural arc" of the turn.
Nobody is bending their body to 60 degrees at the top of the turn reversed to the slope. It would stand out like a turd in a punch bowl in videos.
 

Sanity

Getting off the lift
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I think the definition of carve is coming up again.

If you stop and flatten your skis on a 50 degree slope (tip them so the are at 50 degrees from horizontal and parallel to the slope) while they are pointing straight across the fall line, they will slide down the hill. If you have your downhill edges engaged and not sliding down the hill, while gravity is trying to get you to slide down the hill, you will end up going down the hill without the ski going down the hill, pivoting as it were about a different axis.

In order not to do that you need to have built up some momentum up the hill, or have some turn force going on. Certainly possible on a 50 degree slope, but not easy to do and many people can't. Variables are angle of skis pointing across the fall line, slope angle, turn size, instantaneous speed and direction (of skis and of body -separate paths). There are plenty of folk who can't or won't ski 15 mph in steep moguls. There are lots of people who end up finishing their turns in moguls with their skis 90 degrees to the fall line. Carving, sure, but not if you mean arc-2-arc carving. Pure arc-2-arc carving brings speed, and even if you can do it, you eventually realize that you don't want to do it; the novelty of bouncing off every third mogul at high speeds like a pin ball in an arcade game soon wears off.
LOL, "pivoting as it were about a different axis". Well written and entertaining. That's a pivot we all agree isn't good skiing.

0.1 mph pretty much dictates 90 degrees.
 

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