Gear Pieps DSP problem - Christina Lusti and Nick McNutt story

[jmeb]

Well, according to the BCA rep (Clem) their beacons are the easiest to use and most reliable.

Well, that is exactly what a rep would claim.

I've moved my Tracker 3 into my backup beacon slot because of the follow limitations -- and I am not the only one with these (see Cody Townsends post in the IG thread linked above).

- The Tracker 3 can be easily and inadventedly switched to Send mode when in Search mode. This is not nearly as dire as the opposite problem in the DPS, but it does mean potentially mucking up a search in a highly stressful scenario.
- All BCA beacons -- from the DTS, to the T2, T3 -- suffer from severly limited range on the perpendicular axis. I do not trust myself to be able to maintain the perfect beacon orientation while search (aka, skiing avy debris in a rescue scenario). After seeing the difference in range the field of the T3 and the Barryvox, the choice was obvious.

I will miss the T3 speed of updates in fine searching and big picture mode -- but those are worthwhile tradeoffs for me.

Personally -- I think it's time to stop telling people "any modern 3 antenna beacon" is fine. While they all can be okay, there are real differences with them and some have inherently inferior design features. We need to have conversations about these -- because it's not the matter of whether you prefer a Kastle feel or a Stockli feel in a ski. It's what design(s) make for the most fool-proof, no-surprise operations in a high stress scenario with death on the line.

 

[jmeb]

Although even with the definite malfunction -- i.e., worst-case scenario -- based on the apparent force necessary in the video to slide the switch out of Send into either Search or Off, seems impossible for that to happen with the beacon in a harness, screen facing in toward the user's body. (Worn incorrectly facing out, sure. Worn in a pocket, that also seems possible.)

If you read through the IG post, you will find many others who have seen this in practice with the DPS beacon. If it is "user error" they should figure out a way to ensure users don't make that error more effectively.

I've experienced the DSP slide issue first hand. I had a partner who I beacon checked in the morning. Skied with all day. He took one relatively mild tumble during the day. When we went to switch off beacons at the car (our practice is you turn your beacon off you get your trailhead beer) -- his was already off.

 

[JonathanShefftz]

If you read through the IG post, you will find many others who have seen this in practice with the DPS beacon. If it is "user error" they should figure out a way to ensure users don't make that error more effectively.

I've experienced the DSP slide issue first hand. I had a partner who I beacon checked in the morning. Skied with all day. He took one relatively mild tumble during the day. When we went to switch off beacons at the car (our practice is you turn your beacon off you get your trailhead beer) -- his was already off.

First of all, I would like to encourage everyone to be specific in referencing the DSP Sport/Pro switch design. Both the preceding generation and the succeeding generation use different designs. (Yes, still a sliding switch, but no, not the same design.)

As for the IG post, yes, I read all the comments. The usual vague internet social media claims. Which generation of "DSP" were they using? Relatively new, or lots of use? Did the plastic lock tab have any obvious cracks? Beacon in a pocket or harness? And if in a harness, correctly inserted (i.e., face in, just like for any beacon) or incorrectly? (Ditto for your partner.)

I'm not saying this design isn't a problem. Definitely enough evidence that the lock tab can fail. But all beacons have their own problems, and the determining the extent of this problem isn't helped by the typically vague descriptions of these incidents. (Ditto for the video in which the user switches the modes by pressing hard with his thumb against the lock tab and then reaching inside the harness to move the switch.)

 

[JonathanShefftz]

[...] all of the independent reports and reviews have given the BCA a best value.[...]

That is not even close to being true.

And if you want to rate beacons objectively by features, the $390 T4, $350 T3, and $300 TS are comparably priced with the competition.
(The $285 T2 is actually more expensive than the only other beacon still on the market that lacks any sort of signal suppression, the $260 Ortovox Zoom+.)

I'm not saying that BCA beacons are a bad choice for anyone (well, except for the T2).
But all these blanket statements about how they're the easiest to use is just vestigial from when BCA came up with the first dual-antenna beacon, and then proceeded to dominate the market for many years.

 

[fatbob]

I have an old Orthovox F1. Not my primary beacon any more but just about the most foolproof you can get in strapping on without a need for a separate harness/holster and security of on switch and mode switch. I have heard there are still pros who use them e.g. Euro pisteurs when on bomb routes for certain foolproof transmit functions.

 

[JonathanShefftz]

I have an old Orthovox F1. Not my primary beacon any more but just about the most foolproof you can get in strapping on without a need for a harness and security of on switch and mode switch. I have heard there are still pros who use them e.g. Euro pisteurs when on bomb routes for certain foolproof transmit functions.

I've had avalanche course students who lacked the strength and/or dexterity in cold weather to be able to turn a transmitting F1 beacon to Off on a (hypothetical) recovered victim, no matter how many times I demonstrated how to do so.
I've also had fun asking students indoors to figure out how to turn one of these off -- many (or is most?) are totally stumped.

 

[jmeb]

As for the IG post, yes, I read all the comments. The usual vague internet social media claims. Which generation of "DSP" were they using? Relatively new, or lots of use? Did the plastic lock tab have any obvious cracks? Beacon in a pocket or harness? And if in a harness, correctly inserted (i.e., face in, just like for any beacon) or incorrectly? (Ditto for your partner.)

I don't think we should discount IG posts simply for being brief or "vauge" -- it's inherent in the platforms limitations. I'm sure Lusti and McNutt would happily provide more specifics -- those specifics aren't that important to most users compared to knowledge that this can happen when used properly. I would generally presume an ACMG certified guided follows proper beacon use.

I'm happy to not be vague about our scenario:

In our scenario:

- DSP Sport-- the most recent/final generation of DSP, and currently still for sale on Pieps website. The new PIEPs beacons carry no "DSP" branding/naming. So while an obvious evolution, I would not consider it a "DSP" when someone is referencing it.
- Beacon had <60 days of use. My friend bought it the prior season, before our Level 1 class. We practiced regularly with it including companion rescue course that season and competed in two beacon bowls with it. In all it performed fine.
- No obvious cracks or signs of failure.
- Beacon in harness, facing inwards. I watched him put it in after confirming my beacon check.
- He took one mild spill that day at relatively low speed.

(Easy to recall all this because i wrote it down in my AAIRE blue-book log which I used to be much better about keeping.)

 

[mdf]

beaconreviews.com seems to be having trouble. The front page loads, but links from there fail. Can't get to the reviews.

 

[JonathanShefftz]

beaconreviews.com seems to be having trouble. The front page loads, but links from there fail. Can't get to the reviews.

I emailed Steve several minutes now about that. I've already been in touch with him about this, regarding regular inspections of that switch, and the potentially critical importance of wearing the beacon face-in.

 

[BS Slarver]

 

[JonathanShefftz]

I'm happy to not be vague about our scenario:

Thanks for posting the details -- I find that account very compelling, far more so than all the IG posts.

 

[jmeb]

Thanks for posting the details -- I find that account very compelling, far more so than all the IG posts.

FWIW, he's also a splitboarder. They move funny.

I have to think it was some combo of press to release the middle on the crash or some other weirdness. It was so odd, and wasn't easily reproduceable so we wrote down things at the bar afterward but he continued to use i. I haven't skied with him for a season due to patrol -- but assume he's still using it.

 

[JonathanShefftz]

FWIW, he's also a splitboarder. They move funny.

I have to think it was some combo of press to release the middle on the crash or some other weirdness. It was so odd, and wasn't easily reproduceable so we wrote down things at the bar afterward but he continued to use i. I haven't skied with him for a season due to patrol -- but assume he's still using it.

Ah, well, a snowboarder, in that case, doesn't matter, hah!
Seriously, this seems to boil down to:
- Locking tab can definitely crack, that's easily documented, one pic is all we need.
- Locking tab can definitely weaken over time (with no apparently visible damage) such that the switch can move w/o pressing down on the tab.
- Can the switch inadvertently move while in its harness even an inspection and manipulation of the switch would conclude that it is still in brand-new working order? The first two items are concerning, but if this item is also true, then that's really bad...

 

[JonathanShefftz]

[...]

Yes, there's one data point, I'll grant you that.
And keep in mind that this is same review website that applies its own ranking for ski bindings to "Weight" even though weight is already a quantifiable measure that users can weigh (is that a pun?) on their own when making a decision.

 

[ZionPow]

So how do you keep beacon in hand when you are probing etc?

I leave the transceiver out and hanging from the elastic lanyard when probing and digging. There is less probability of it being bumped into transmit mode when it is out vs placed in a pocket or harness. On the Tracker 2, the harness is not designed to hold a transceiver that is in search mode with the button pulled out.

I had an incident when we were performing an actual initial search outside the boundary of our resort. One of the search team members who was probing at every location that the avy dog marked had placed his Tracker 2 in a pocket. It got bumped to transmit mode in his pocket a couple of times until he finally took it out.

 

[jmeb]

Pieps completely weak sauce response. Notably -- while telling users to use beacons correctly -- their own website, manual and videos demonstrates carrying the beacon screen out when best practice (and their manuals text guidance) is screen in.

 

[pais alto]

Beacon Reviews chimes in.

Pieps DSP Switch

Learn about problems with the power switch on Pieps DSP Pro and Sport avalanche beacons.

beaconreviews.com

 

[Lauren]

Based on this TGR article in the incident(s), the biggest issue seems to be that it can fail with no visible signs of cracking or physical failure. Just my humble opinion, but it does seem like BD is taking this serious enough. Worth the read if you’re looking for full information on the McNutt incident.

What’s Going On With Those Pieps Avalanche Beacons?

Teton Gravity Research is aware of the ongoing conversations happening online and in person, so here's what we know about the incident from last winter, and the facts regarding Nick’s Pieps DSP Pro beacon.

www.tetongravity.com

 

[Mattadvproject]

This today from Pieps....

 

[blackke17]

I got the sport. i just sent them an email , be interesting to see their response