Pressing wax into base instead of ironing?

[BmbrMcGnrly]

Had an opportunity to speak with a gentleman who has spent decades tuning skis. He uses a technique to wax where he rubs wax on the base of the ski, then instead of ironing, presses the wax into the base using a rounded plexiglass scraper (again, rounded as not to scratch/cut the base as he does so). His reasoning was that a hot iron (even a proper wax iron at the lowest setting for the wax) can have a negative effect on the construction of the ski, as the heat could degrade the glue used in the ski's construction. After he presses the wax in, he brushes the ski with a roto brush.

Has anyone ever seen this technique and have their thoughts on it? Debating trying it out instead of a hot wax this weekend. Seems like it might take a while to master but if the results are the same as a hot wax it might be worth it on the skis I want to baby.

Thanks!

 

[zircon]

Sounds like advice I’ve gotten from Mike at SkiMD, so I’d guess there’s something to it. Labor intensive, though.

 

[crgildart]

I rub on warm temp wax in spring and just leave it bumpy... structure. For normal temps you can rub it on and use a cork to smooth it out. Don't even really need to scrape it after that... and thrifty, a cake of wax will cover many more skis using that method. But it lasts longer ironed.. You're only going to get half a day to a day out of it rubbed on, a full day if corked, three days ironed..

 

[jt10000]

Had an opportunity to speak with a gentleman who has spent decades tuning skis. He uses a technique to wax where he rubs wax on the base of the ski, then instead of ironing, presses the wax into the base using a rounded plexiglass scraper (again, rounded as not to scratch/cut the base as he does so). His reasoning was that a hot iron (even a proper wax iron at the lowest setting for the wax) can have a negative effect on the construction of the ski, as the heat could degrade the glue used in the ski's construction. After he presses the wax in, he brushes the ski with a roto brush.

I have not tried it, but no way will this method have the same longevity as using heat for wax designed to be melted. Maybe that's OK for the user.

Also, in my experience, part of the issue with people overheating skis is using irons too low. Really, the wax must come off the iron easily, so you can work fast. And there are lots of other details on how to protect skis from overheating.

 

[Tom K.]

Also, in my experience, part of the issue with people overheating skis is using irons too low. Really, the wax must come off the iron easily, so you can work fast. And there are lots of other details on how to protect skis from overheating.

Generally agree with the "hotter and faster approach".

Curious to hear your "other details on how to protect skis from overheating".

 

[jt10000]

Be generous enough with wax to be sure there is some between the iron and the base.

Don't try to re-heat wax that is still liquid. Use heat to transform the wax from solid to liquid and put it into the ski, but don't keep ironing melted wax since it's hard to tell what where the heat is going.

Don't move the iron back and forth, since it's easy to get distracted and leave it in one place. Pick a tempo and move along the ski in one direction - and learn to lift the iron off the ski if anything interrupts you. People might be talking in a busy wax room and someone will pause to listen/talk, stopping the iron from moving.

 

[crgildart]

I have not tried it, but no way will this method have the same longevity as using heat for wax designed to be melted. Maybe that's OK for the user.

Also, in my experience, part of the issue with people overheating skis is using irons too low. Really, the wax must come off the iron easily, so you can work fast. And there are lots of other details on how to protect skis from overheating.

Generally agree with the "hotter and faster approach".

Curious to hear your "other details on how to protect skis from overheating".

It's REALLY quite simple. If the wax is smoking the iron is TOO hot. Turn it down. If the wax isn't dripping fast enough the iron is too COLD. Turn it up some, but not so far the wax is smoking.

 

[cantunamunch]

Had an opportunity to speak with a gentleman who has spent decades tuning skis. He uses a technique to wax where he rubs wax on the base of the ski, then instead of ironing, presses the wax into the base using a rounded plexiglass scraper (again, rounded as not to scratch/cut the base as he does so). His reasoning was that a hot iron (even a proper wax iron at the lowest setting for the wax) can have a negative effect on the construction of the ski, as the heat could degrade the glue used in the ski's construction. After he presses the wax in, he brushes the ski with a roto brush.

Has anyone ever seen this technique and have their thoughts on it? Debating trying it out instead of a hot wax this weekend. Seems like it might take a while to master but if the results are the same as a hot wax it might be worth it on the skis I want to baby.

Thanks!

This is a variation of the Wax Whizard method. Almost 20 years ago now, the Wax Whizard was a plastic cylinder that one rotated into the ski to generate a line of high pressure against the ski. In a further refinement beyond your friend's scraper edge, the Wax Whizard had synthetic paper wrappings that sort of behaved like artificial cork. Mike DeSantis, mentioned above, used to be a strong advocate for it back in the mid '00s when most civilian wax irons were cr@p and he had to grind out the results.

It works OK, and it is less shoulder-rub intensive than corking.

By OK I mean - the wax you are using must be soft enough and pliant enough to actually rub on properly.
The method will simply not work well with conventional hard-cold waxes (Swix grade 4 and 5) or super tough/resilient microcrystalline waxes (Purl).
It works *great* with really soft penetrating waxes like Swix BP88 and Dominator Base Renew.
It gets weird with waxes that have a lot of surfactants like Hertel HotSauce, especially if the bases are slightly dirty, because the layer of wax picks up random drekh from the bases and clumps around it in thin strandy objects. Like someone rubbing semi-dried spilled glue off their hands.

To sum up, the alternatives to hot waxing are:
- corking
- line pressure gizmos
- liquid waxes and paste waxes.

20 years ago on a different forum I was a huge fan of corking - because it worked for the waxes I was using and it was super thrifty. There was a solid group of folks who were Wax Whizard fans. On this forum, now, most of the alternative-method shoppers have gone the paste or liquid route.

Now, I don't know how exactly your friend does it - but the synthetic paper "fabric" above was a BIG factor in how well the Wax Whizard system worked. I am pretty sure I would not even bother with just the PVC pipe shown.

 

[Tom K.]

It's REALLY quite simple. If the wax is smoking the iron is TOO hot. Turn it down.

Is this anything like the Polish Torquing Method of tighten it till it breaks, then back it off an eighth of a turn?!

Asking with tongue firmly in cheek as a Ski Talker who is darn proud of his Polish heritage.

 

[ThomasD]

This is a variation of the Wax Whizard method. Almost 20 years ago now, the Wax Whizard was a plastic cylinder that one rotated into the ski to generate a line of high pressure against the ski. In a further refinement beyond your friend's scraper edge, the Wax Whizard had synthetic paper wrappings that sort of behaved like artificial cork. Mike DeSantis, mentioned above, used to be a strong advocate for it back in the mid '00s when most civilian wax irons were cr@p and he had to grind out the results.

It works OK, and it is less shoulder-rub intensive than corking.

By OK I mean - the wax you are using must be soft enough and pliant enough to actually rub on properly.
The method will simply not work well with conventional hard-cold waxes (Swix grade 4 and 5) or super tough/resilient microcrystalline waxes (Purl).
It works *great* with really soft penetrating waxes like Swix BP88 and Dominator Base Renew.
It gets weird with waxes that have a lot of surfactants like Hertel HotSauce, especially if the bases are slightly dirty, because the layer of wax picks up random drekh from the bases and clumps around it in thin strandy objects. Like someone rubbing semi-dried spilled glue off their hands.

To sum up, the alternatives to hot waxing are:
- corking
- line pressure gizmos
- liquid waxes and paste waxes.

20 years ago on a different forum I was a huge fan of corking - because it worked for the waxes I was using and it was super thrifty. There was a solid group of folks who were Wax Whizard fans. On this forum, now, most of the alternative-method shoppers have gone the paste or liquid route.

View attachment 157257

Now, I don't know how exactly your friend does it - but the synthetic paper "fabric" above was a BIG factor in how well the Wax Whizard system worked. I am pretty sure I would not even bother with just the PVC pipe shown.

Never actually tried it but I suspect vigorous corking could pretty much melt BP88, or at least reduce viscosity to near liquid.

 

[cantunamunch]

Never actually tried it but I suspect vigorous corking could pretty much melt BP88, or at least reduce viscosity to near liquid.

Hah. Vigorous corking can do amazing things. Including get LF4 to an oil-slick sheen*.


*to pick a non-random example in a nameless Colorado condo, where several anonymized Mid-Atlantic skiers flapped** harder than chickens taking off just prior to a mixed rain/snow event***.

**if you're doing it fast enough and hard enough, you have to use both shoulders. Or your neck gets jackhammered.

***LF4 was totally the right call. The stuff up top was *sharp*, the sludge down low was utter glop.

 

[BmbrMcGnrly]

Very cool - learning a ton here. Thanks!

 

[scott43]

The friction is basically melting the wax..so it's kinda the same thing..on a much smaller, slower scale..

 

[dovski]

So I have tried multiple approaches and always come back to traditional hot waxing. Now you can crayon wax on to ensure a thin coat across the base before you run the iron over, and you can use the mop technique if you don't like scraping. Corking works but when you are waxing 5-10 pairs of skis not so much ... it is a lot of work. Liquid paraffin is good but I typically use that in combination with periodic hot waxing. I have also tried some of the permanent wax alternatives like Phantom and they are ok, but still do not replace traditional wax IMHO.

If you want to tune your own skis it is important to know what you are doing as I know many who have damaged their skis (myself included) by hitting above their weight class so to speak. So if you are hot waxing, make sure you set the temperature correctly on your iron and do not leave a hot iron on your skis as that can damage the base for example.

 

[Tom K.]

Liquid paraffin is good but I typically use that in combination with periodic hot waxing.

Same. Two (well, sometimes three) liquids for each hot wax. Seems like a good balance, and lordy, does the shop ever stay a lot cleaner with less frequent scraping episodes!

 

[raytseng]

if you're doing a warm scrape with the
correct spread-the-butter angle on the scraper, that seems to me basically the same confept of pressing the wax into the base along with cutting thr excess wax.

I dont think its worth the trouble to do it without the wax warmed up, but to each their own.

 

[Primoz]

Had an opportunity to speak with a gentleman who has spent decades tuning skis. He uses a technique to wax where he rubs wax on the base of the ski, then instead of ironing, presses the wax into the base using a rounded plexiglass scraper (again, rounded as not to scratch/cut the base as he does so). His reasoning was that a hot iron (even a proper wax iron at the lowest setting for the wax) can have a negative effect on the construction of the ski, as the heat could degrade the glue used in the ski's construction. After he presses the wax in, he brushes the ski with a roto brush.

Has anyone ever seen this technique and have their thoughts on it? Debating trying it out instead of a hot wax this weekend. Seems like it might take a while to master but if the results are the same as a hot wax it might be worth it on the skis I want to baby.

Thanks!

You can tell this gentleman, that pressing rounded plastic scraper against base, has quite bad effect first on structure and then depending on on pressure also ptex, and it doesn't do anything at all to the wax getting into ptex.
In reality, I have used no ironing technique (not that weird one as described, but rubbing HF overlay blocks or powders and then using cork roto "brush" to "rub it in") back in my WC days. But in XC it was meant only for sprints, where wax needed to last only about 1km and then skis were rewaxed for next heat, or in alpine for SL/GS races, where you realistically needs speed only for first few gates out of start (then you are on edge anyway, so no need for much of HF overlays). For normal wax, it's useless to even bother then, as all the wax he will "rub in" will be gone before you will reach bottom of first run of the day.

 

[BaconTowel]

Sounds like advice I’ve gotten from Mike at SkiMD, so I’d guess there’s something to it. Labor intensive, though.

Yup, he sells a "Pro Glide" tools that works extremely well. Particularly helpful if you don't have a safe and ventilated space for hot waxing.

skimd.com

Intelligent Ski & Ski Racing Service Specialty Retail Service Boot Fitting Service Binding Service

skimd.com

 

[crgildart]

So DPS Phantom then??

 

[BmbrMcGnrly]

So do I buy the pro-glide then or...?

Lol