Questions on a new plug boot

[Mike B]

Howdy!
I'm in need of a new plug boot, but there are none available in my area to try on. I've skied in a Nordica WC 150 for sometime, but mine is old and without EDT. I can't say I'm a fan of EDT due to cold feet. I skied in a Head RS130 (non) plug in the past, but felt a bit over-flexed and they packed out after one season. One other oddity with the Head RS130 was that the shell length was a few mills longer than what I was used to. I know, I know, those boots ain't made for walking, but it always did feel odd walking in them.
So, first question: I've read that the new Head WCRs are even longer in both the toe box area and also in sole length. My left foot is a tad shorter than my right, and would prefer to fit to my small foot and grind if possible. Could I possibly go down a shell size in the WCR? Does anyone have experience skiing these new boots? Does it feel that much longer (internally mainly, but externally as well) and does the forward lean / ramp feel the same as the old RS?

Second question: I'm considering the 2020 Fischer Podium boot also. Is anyone skiing these that has also been in a Nordica plug or Head? The Fischer web site says they have a more "upright stance" but I can't find any info on forward lean or ramp.

If anyone has a list of forward lean angles and ramp for boots, I'll buy you a sixer! haha

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Mike

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I went through 4 or 5 pairs of Dobermanns from the old matte finish "soft" through the EDT and Aggressors and have switched to the Fischer Podium. I'm a big fan of the Fischer.

Plusses for the Fischer, much easier on and off (no hairdryer needed) and far more adjustment than the Dobermann. The fit is different, my foot kind of likes the Dobie better The Fischer seems a bit longer for a given size, but I can't downsize from where I am. It's certainly worth trying a pair. It depends on your feet, but if you liked the Dobie, the Fischer could be a good option for you.

 

[ScotsSkier]

The atomic team issue plug also gives you a fit very like the Dobie and skis similar. Also same length. you will probably find the head is a bit flatter in the instep than the dobie which could impact if you have a high instep/ arch. The dobie and similar work for me but the head is a struggle

 

[Mike B]

Thanks, folks. Good info!

 

[Mike B]

I went through 4 or 5 pairs of Dobermanns from the old matte finish "soft" through the EDT and Aggressors and have switched to the Fischer Podium. I'm a big fan of the Fischer.

Plusses for the Fischer, much easier on and off (no hairdryer needed) and far more adjustment than the Dobermann. The fit is different, my foot kind of likes the Dobie better The Fischer seems a bit longer for a given size, but I can't downsize from where I am. It's certainly worth trying a pair. It depends on your feet, but if you liked the Dobie, the Fischer could be a good option for you.

Besides the length, what would say is different about the fit? Was the stance similar as far as lean and ramp to the Nordica? I did like the heel cup in the Head, but the instep was an issue. The Rossi would be too much work I think from the heel through the arch.

 

[Noodler]

Besides the length, what would say is different about the fit? Was the stance similar as far as lean and ramp to the Nordica? I did like the heel cup in the Head, but the instep was an issue. The Rossi would be too much work I think from the heel through the arch.

What shell size are you in now?

 

[Mike B]

What shell size are you in now?

26

 

[Noodler]

I don't know what humans the Fischer Podium boot toe boxes are made for, but they sure aren't for my feet. Of course the toe box is easily modified, but why so pointy? I can say the same about some of the Atomics I've been in, but I'm not sure if it's as universal across the line like it seems to be with the Podiums. It's one of the reasons I really liked the Head B2 and B3 shells since they have a wider toe box, low instep, and very anatomical heel/ankle pocket (basically fit my feet without mods). However, the WCR series are a totally different beast from the older B2/B3. Head made significant modifications in that last shape; including moving the ankle hinge point. I can't drop into the WCR like the older Head plugs, so I moved over to Nordica and found that boot even easier to drop into than the Head B2/B3, but I did need more ZipFit cork over my insteps to fill in a bit. I'm loving how the Nordicas ski. The stance setup has been very good for me after some bootboard grinding.

 

[Mike B]

I don't know what humans the Fischer Podium boot toe boxes are made for, but they sure aren't for my feet. Of course the toe box is easily modified, but why so pointy? I can say the same about some of the Atomics I've been in, but I'm not sure if it's as universal across the line like it seems to be with the Podiums. It's one of the reasons I really liked the Head B2 and B3 shells since they have a wider toe box, low instep, and very anatomical heel/ankle pocket (basically fit my feet without mods). However, the WCR series are a totally different beast from the older B2/B3. Head made significant modifications in that last shape; including moving the ankle hinge point. I can't drop into the WCR like the older Head plugs, so I moved over to Nordica and found that boot even easier to drop into than the Head B2/B3, but I did need more ZipFit cork over my insteps to fill in a bit. I'm loving how the Nordicas ski. The stance setup has been very good for me after some bootboard grinding.

Thanks, Noodler. I really appreciate your feedback. The only reason I'm not considering the Nordica again is the EDT. BUT, once again I havent been able to find info on whether or not that has changed over the years. I skied in an older model EDT and it felt like the zepa was made of metal. My feet rarely get cold in the non EDT plugs, or any boot for that matter, but these were noticable. Perhaps they have gotten with the times and are using carbon or some other non metal substance, but not sure about that. Let me know if you know. Thanks again!

 

[Noodler]

Thanks, Noodler. I really appreciate your feedback. The only reason I'm not considering the Nordica again is the EDT. BUT, once again I havent been able to find info on whether or not that has changed over the years. I skied in an older model EDT and it felt like the zepa was made of metal. My feet rarely get cold in the non EDT plugs, or any boot for that matter, but these were noticable. Perhaps they have gotten with the times and are using carbon or some other non metal substance, but not sure about that. Let me know if you know. Thanks again!

The original EDT bootboards were made from aluminum and Nordica got some serious negative feedback on that design decision. Later iterations of EDT are carbon fiber. The boots no longer have a built in freezer.

 

[S.H.]

The original EDT bootboards were made from aluminum and Nordica got some serious negative feedback on that design decision. Later iterations of EDT are carbon fiber. The boots no longer have a built in freezer.

This.

I had a pair of the aluminum EDT plugs. Seriously not fun. I think that only lasted a couple of years.

 

[ScotsSkier]

The original EDT bootboards were made from aluminum and Nordica got some serious negative feedback on that design decision. Later iterations of EDT are carbon fiber. The boots no longer have a built in freezer.

This.

I had a pair of the aluminum EDT plugs. Seriously not fun. I think that only lasted a couple of years.

yes, the Dobies only had the EDT for a couple of years - 13-15IIRC - then switched back to a normal plug boot board. The EDT was a success if you consider making an already cold boot colder a good thing, , otherwise it was a disaster. Cant say for sure but dont think the real deal WC version of the boot ever used it - @Primoz could give more info on that.

so if the Dobie fits your foot and you know how well it skis, why would you not just get another pair? There is a reason the Dobie has been the gold standard in plug boots for a looooong time and several other manufacturers have copied it very closely. Dont change a winning formula that works. Atomic tried that when they switched to the original redster from the previous TI (Team issue) boot and then progressively changed it till they got to the current version which is very similar to the old TI!

 

[HardDaysNight]

I’ve been in the Head WCR3 for a month or so. Previous boot was the R2 RD. Head boots tend to suit me pretty well. The new boot does seem a touch roomier - I went down a size. It’s got 16 degrees of forward lean (measured in the traditional way) and 4 degrees of ramp, same as the R series. The plastic is very different. It’s much more malleable than the old plastic. I can get into the smaller boots easily without warming them. The new plastic also seems much less temperature sensitive in terms of stiffness than the old. They feel a bit softer in flex too. I have both boots in the spine which is meant to produce a 150 flex same as I set up the R2 but they don’t feel quite as stiff. Very good feeling for me.

 

[Mike B]

I’ve been in the Head WCR3 for a month or so. Pr4evious boot was the R2 RD. Head boots tend to suit me pretty well. The new boot does seem a touch roomier - I went down a size. It’s got 16 degrees of forward lean (measured in the traditional way) and 4 degrees of ramp, same as the R series. The plastic is very different. It’s much more malleable than the old plastic. I can get into the smaller boots easily without warming them. The new plastic also seems much less temperature sensitive in terms of stiffness than the old. They feel a bit softer in flex too. I have both boots in the spine which is meant to produce a 150 flex same as I set up the R2 but they don’t feel quite as stiff. Very good feeling for me.

I’ve been in the Head WCR3 for a month or so. Previous boot was the R2 RD. Head boots tend to suit me pretty well. The new boot does seem a touch roomier - I went down a size. It’s got 16 degrees of forward lean (measured in the traditional way) and 4 degrees of ramp, same as the R series. The plastic is very different. It’s much more malleable than the old plastic. I can get into the smaller boots easily without warming them. The new plastic also seems much less temperature sensitive in terms of stiffness than the old. They feel a bit softer in flex too. I have both boots in the spine which is meant to produce a 150 flex same as I set up the R2 but they don’t feel quite as stiff. Very good feeling for me.

So this morning I read this post and thought, " Why would I?" Saw the Nordica rep and hour later and that person said they maybe sold out, and hard to come by, but I can try to contact the guy in-charge of the race department." My reply was, " Really, 150 plugs are flying off the shelf in a year like this and last." Seems kinda odd given that if I wait another month the shops that didn't sell their stock will have them for pretty cheap. I think I bought my last pair for $150 that were from two years prior - just different paint. Turns out they shipped them without the zepa in one boot, then sent the zepa and gave them to me for free, which was nice.

 

[Mike B]

I’ve been in the Head WCR3 for a month or so. Previous boot was the R2 RD. Head boots tend to suit me pretty well. The new boot does seem a touch roomier - I went down a size. It’s got 16 degrees of forward lean (measured in the traditional way) and 4 degrees of ramp, same as the R series. The plastic is very different. It’s much more malleable than the old plastic. I can get into the smaller boots easily without warming them. The new plastic also seems much less temperature sensitive in terms of stiffness than the old. They feel a bit softer in flex too. I have both boots in the spine which is meant to produce a 150 flex same as I set up the R2 but they don’t feel quite as stiff. Very good feeling for me.

The flex pattern and plastic description sounds pretty good and what I'm looking for. The fact that I cant try them on and you downsized worries me a little. I heard the 26.5 had a boot sole of 304, but the old one was 307 I believe. So, it makes me nervous that the sole length went down but there is more room.

I wish these companies could make it more feasible for local shops to be able to stock some of these boots that may not sell without the risk of not selling and inventory. And, for that matter, Fischer, for example, has a ton of different boots, different lasts, different gadgets, but they cant make a half size? Nobody just settles for whole sizes on running shoes or dress shoes, but $700 dollar boots on pro deal, plus tax and shipping, lifters, routing and grinds, flying down a mountain on skis and its ok. They say the can't afford half sizes but they can build the boot in 3 or 4 lasts. Seems odd to me, especially that many or us one foot bigger than the other.

Thanks for letting me vent and the info! haha

 

[pliny the elder]

So this morning I read this post and thought, " Why would I?" Saw the Nordica rep and hour later and that person said they maybe sold out, and hard to come by, but I can try to contact the guy in- My reply was, " Really, 150 plugs are flying off the shelf in a year like this and last." Seems kinda odd given that if I wait another month the shops that didn't sell their stock will have them for pretty cheap. I think I bought my last pair for $150 that were from two years prior - just different paint.

Most of the supply with plug boots takes place in September and October. The bulk of the boots that get brought in are already spoken for, that is allocated for specific individuals or ordered by the few shops that stock race boots. This is particularly true in the stiffer flexes. Usually in early November or so, the race department releases the extra boots they have and the supply briefly surges. No surprise at all that there isnt much inventory in January. Particularly this year. If it is the second year of the graphic cycle, the supply is less.

I wish these companies could make it more feasible for local shops to be able to stock some of these boots that may not sell without the risk of not selling and inventory. And, for that matter, Fischer, for example, has a ton of different boots, different lasts, different gadgets, but they cant make a half size? Nobody just settles for whole sizes on running shoes or dress shoes, but $700 dollar boots on pro deal, plus tax and shipping, lifters, routing and grinds, flying down a mountain on skis and its ok. They say the can't afford half sizes but they can build the boot in 3 or 4 lasts. Seems odd to me, especially that many or us one foot bigger than the other.

Hard to know where to begin here.

If there as ever a place where the lack of a half size doesn't matter, the plug boot would be the place to start. This is where the notion of a half size never existed in the first place. It's pretty easy to make the left boot a little bigger than the right boot.

Secondly, most ski shops do not have the tooling, expertise or any interest in stocking boots that require extensive labor and will sell, most likely, at a significant discount, to a racer or otherwise. Spend more time to make less money? Oh wait, I have to buy a bunch of expensive tools too?

Third, complaining about the price of something when you seem to feel entitled to a discount, will not endear you to anyone. Very few people who get race boots pay full price. If buying off year and saving is your MO fine, but don't complain about pro price on a $900 boot.

Most ski clubs host race nights where manufacturers bring samples and take orders. Assuming your eligibility, this might be the best place to try on multiple brands. These events take place in the fall when there are boots.

Obviously, your results may vary, perhaps in accordance with your FIS points. No offense intended, but seriously.

pliny the elder

 

[Mike B]

Actually, offense slightly taken.

I'm not complaining about anything, just trying to make a point. I think a well fitting boot benefits all skiers. How many people have you coached that have boots way to big? How many will actually take the time, energy and money to make them fit properly from the beginning buy grinding a plug? Whether rec or plug, width AND length matter. I realize they've never made half sizes, but maybe they should.

BTW - you can us a plug 150 in bumps too. They don't just work well on your FIS course.

 

[Philpug]

BTW - you can us a plug 150 in bumps too. They don't just work well on your FIS course.

Patrick Deneen skied a 150 Lange as his boot when he was competing at the FIS level.

 

[Mike B]

Patrick Deneen skied a 150 Lange as his boot when he was competing at the FIS level.

If the boot fits, ski it. Soft, wide boots are harder to manage (for me) anyway) more often than not. I can always make a stiff boot softer as well.

On a different note - does anyone know what the ramp and forward lean angles are in the Dobbie? I feel less overflexed in those compared to the Heads which are 4 degrees of ramp and 16 degrees of forward lean. Just curious. Thanks

 

[Mike B]

Some good general info in this manual, but nothing too specific on ramp / forward lean.