Ratio of Lesson to Non Lesson Days on the hill

[KingGrump]

My personal ratio is driven more by circumstance than design -- for the past few years (modulo covid) I take a "ski week" of lessons at Taos (6 mornings) and no others, out of a total of 20 to 30 days. (So 1/3 to 1/5).

Skiing with a group of good skiers (i.e. other Ski Talkers) makes a huge difference. Not only can you see what they are doing, it also resets your expectations of what is normal.

When I stopped and thought about the big group we had competently skiing double blacks at Aspen during the Gathering, I was amazed. Many of them are also doing the Taos ski week plus chase-better-skier mix, and many of them were intermediate skiers beginning to ski easy bumps when I met them not all that many years ago.

Pay dirt.

 

[justplanesteve]

There are professional students of great avocation & often great accomplishment in any discipline. Skiing, Golf, Dance, Tennis, Flying, Juggling, Music, etc, etc. There is practice and sometimes participation with others in between, but lessons and attainment of sometimes esoteric capabilities are the focus.
In no way am i disparaging it. Some of those activities i'd love to be able to afford to be a professional student.
For many of us, time & money connive to make a leaner metric imperative.

That aside, even when younger, i did not process ergomic activities rapidly enough to benefit greatly from "long" lessons in anything. (Excepting full immersion for maybe a week a few times) AFA skiing, i;m better with a morning lesson, afternoon focused practice, and another day on the hill at least before another lesson. I do better when i am puzzled, rammy, trying to read ahead in the book, and really want to have another lesson because the next step is not coming fast enough. In life, if it (lesson) is "just on the schedule" I tend to more go through the motions of practice, or even put it off, "will fix that next lesson" "There's always another lesson".

So yeah, personal approach, and personal situations will dictate. Both of which will most likely be fluid (change) during different periods of your life.

smt

 

[Andy Mink]

Learned a ton not the least of which is I still have a ton to learn.

This might be the most important thing to learn. I haven't done ski lessons at all (REALLY? You don't say!) but I've learned this in other endeavors.

 

[BTWilliams]

Growing up...close to 100%...because I was always being coached.

Now....zero....unless I count some of the good input I have had here after describing my own skiing.

Once you get to a certain level, and you understand how the physics work, it is really about identifying what is wrong with your skiing. Once you do that....you just do drills to stamp out the incorrect body motions you have ingrained. I am not a big believer in "aware" skiing. Unless someone has just started skiing, they have usually built up too much bad muscle memory. You can "know what to do"...but it does not matter. You are not going to fix just because you know what you are doing (wrong). The "do this" method of instruction, except for novices, I feel is all but useless.

Drills drills drills. That is how it works for me. What works for you may differ.

 

[BMC]

Growing up...close to 100%...because I was always being coached.

Now....zero....unless I count some of the good input I have had here after describing my own skiing.

Once you get to a certain level, and you understand how the physics work, it is really about identifying what is wrong with your skiing. Once you do that....you just do drills to stamp out the incorrect body motions you have ingrained. I am not a big believer in "aware" skiing. Unless someone has just started skiing, they have usually built up too much bad muscle memory. You can "know what to do"...but it does not matter. You are not going to fix just because you know what you are doing (wrong). The "do this" method of instruction, except for novices, I feel is all but useless.

Drills drills drills. That is how it works for me. What works for you may differ.

And even with that, doing the drill right is necessary. No point repeatedly doing a drill wrong.

 

[slow-line-fast]

LOL, I was afraid of that.

Me: Advanced Skier, Aged 54, All-Mountain skier with new found love for trees, I get in maybe 25 days/season on the hill mostly full days. Doing the Alpine Meadows Unlimited group lessons this year with some rather awesome ski instructors...bulk of whom are PSIA 3. Learned a ton not the least of which is I still have a ton to learn.

I pretty much try to take a lesson whenever I'm up, though usually traffic may say otherwise. That said, I'm wondering if the frequency of lessons is a little overkill...like would it be best to take a day working on pivot slips, one legged skiing drills or whatever as opposed to grabbing a lesson where we end up doing something completely different.

Does that help? Frankly, I'm planning out next season and trying to decide if I'm going to do the unlimited lessons again (which are awesome) vs getting a second pass to a closer hill where I can realistically duck out of work on a Friday and ski a few hours at random. In either scenario lessons at Alpine are still planned...but do I really need a coach 80% of my ski days.

Is there a better way to making the non-Squallywood (I don't need to huck massive cliffs) Palisades Tahoe terrain my oyster?


(yes, I could do Ikon, Sugar Bowl AND unlimited lessons...but then would I ever use Sugar Bowl since there's a lesson right down the road)

This sounds like each time you go, you would have a different instructor and group? If so, I wouldn’t do a lesson every day, as the focus will randomly change and you need some time working the material from the last lesson into your skiing. So minimum one freeski day after a lesson, focusing on that previous lesson.

There is a benefit to getting different perspectives, but it can be an overload (new instructor every day)

 

[4ster]

No point repeatedly doing a drill wrong…

…or doing the right drill wrong or without purpose. This why it is so important to have a qualified instructor, coach or video when integrating change.

 

[Ken_R]

Just curious to hear from the instructors and lesson devotees. What have you found to be the best mix of lessons to days of absorbing the lessons to just free ski not thinking about technique days.

I really hope I articulated that well. Seems to me there should be a good balance of the three, but I have no idea where that balance lies.

Lessons are too expensive, at least here in Colorado. Last time I took one lesson was 9 years ago.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

Practice makes permanent.

 

[dovski]

It always amazes me the number of people I know who ski 6-8 times a year, the days their kids have weekly lessons, and nothing more. They show up for their 2 hours on the hill and head home. For me and my family that has never been the case. When my kids were younger we probably average a ration of 2:1 ski days to lessons, and when they had lessons we skied all day. As my kids progressed into Freeride I started taking advanced clinics and would typically have 8-12 2 hour clinics each year but always had 35-50 ski days. Days when I had clinics I would also ski bell to bell.

Clinics have really helped me improve my technique, but skiing with friends who are more advanced really cemented things. Bottom line is that lessons/clinics are great and everyone should invest in them, but mileage is key to really improving things in a permanent way. It is also the reason I take lessons ... so I can get more out of my actual ski days.

As any FYI lesson as a one off get very expensive, but some of the ongoing clinics and programs are quite reasonable. The Mountain Pros Clinic at Alpental runs about $200 per 6 clinic session and they have two sessions each season ... definitely worth the investment of time and money.

 

[BMC]

It always amazes me the number of people I know who ski 6-8 times a year, the days their kids have weekly lessons, and nothing more. They show up for their 2 hours on the hill and head home. For me and my family that has never been the case. When my kids were younger we probably average a ration of 2:1 ski days to lessons, and when they had lessons we skied all day. As my kids progressed into Freeride I started taking advanced clinics and would typically have 8-12 2 hour clinics each year but always had 35-50 ski days. Days when I had clinics I would also ski bell to bell.

Clinics have really helped me improve my technique, but skiing with friends who are more advanced really cemented things. Bottom line is that lessons/clinics are great and everyone should invest in them, but mileage is key to really improving things in a permanent way. It is also the reason I take lessons ... so I can get more out of my actual ski days.

As any FYI lesson as a one off get very expensive, but some of the ongoing clinics and programs are quite reasonable. The Mountain Pros Clinic at Alpental runs about $200 per 6 clinic session and they have two sessions each season ... definitely worth the investment of time and money.

I do agree with you. Earlier and in the middle and even a bit later in the learning journey lots of lessons and camps are very valuable. I’ve done 1 x 3 week course, 4 or 5 x 1 week courses (with one more coming this Australian Season), 2 x season long programs, 1 x season long race program, 1 x instructor hiring clinic (level 1 course) and any number of private and group lessons. But it’s also fair to say I see considerably less value in those programs, and see diminishing incremental improvements only, as i get to more advanced levels on my “skiing journey”.

For me, I think the only way to see material improvements in my skiing would be to do a couple of back to back seasons, with periodic focused training. Fingers crossed I can do that soon!

 

[geepers]

For me, I think the only way to see material improvements in my skiing would be to do a couple of back to back seasons, with periodic focused training. Fingers crossed I can do that soon!

Days on snow is massive help for ongoing improvement. It's difficult to comprehend how in tune and comfortable we can get being on skis in an 80-100 days in a season. And there's plenty of time for working on stuff. It's hard to justify multiple days spent on one or two drills when your total season is 1 or 2 or 3 weeks skiing.

 

[Johnny V.]

It's hard to justify multiple days spent on one or two drills when your total season is 1 or 2 or 3 weeks skiing.

Kinda my thoughts on this whole thread. Drills are means to an end, not the end itself. Sometimes you should just go out and ski for the enjoyment of it.

 

[MarkG]

Kinda my thoughts on this whole thread. Drills are means to an end, not the end itself. Sometimes you should just go out and ski for the enjoyment of it.

I mean, that's kind of the essence of the thread. Blending the going out and skiing for the enjoyment with 1) lessons that are usually some part drill to some part applied drill and 2) moments of just going out and doing drills (though I'll admit for me this is generally part of a day as opposed to the whole day.)

 

[David Chaus]

During Jan/early Feb I’m taking a multi-week clinic on Fridays, so I like to free ski on Thursdays. So alternating instruction with free ski time, in which I’m working on the skills from the previous lesson, but mostly having fun.

So it’s 1:1 ration for a month an a half, then I do some travelling. Over a season it works out to a 1:6 ratio maybe.

 

[BTWilliams]

And even with that, doing the drill right is necessary. No point repeatedly doing a drill wrong.

Very good point.

But....here is another way of looking at it.

If a "drill" is hard enough for a given person that you need a coach/observer to even do the drill, is that drill really even useful for you? I say NO. My view is that if you can not do "a drill" right, and know it is right, then you are probably getting ahead of yourself and trying to do THE WRONG DRILL.

Here is a good example, from personal experience. I started doing one ski drills, but every now and again would get myself in trouble, and get hung up, lose forward pressure and get back. One ski drills can hurt you if you do not have fore-aft control down. So I swallowed my pride, and went back and spent a ton of time doing falling leaf/whirlybird drills. You gotta be humble and willing to do the basics.

 

[markojp]

I reckon I’d average one lesson for each week of skiing. I also try to do a week long all day improvement camp every couple of seasons. Covid interrupted that, but hopefully I’m back at it in Oz this season.

That week aside though I’d just typically do a 2 hour private or afternoon lesson once a week or so.

My last lesson my instructor said he didn‘t think I really needed more lessons - he indicated I knew what I needed to do and just needed miles of applied skiing to embed it.

Self-directed free skiing is awesome, especially if in your coaching, you've developed the tools to be self-diagnostic for what you're working on. Of course your focus needs to be somewhat limited and specific to be successful, but mindful free skiing mileage is a fantastic and instrumental component of skier improvement IMHO.

 

[tromano]

I take lessons when I want to work on something. The last time I wanted to work on something was ~10 years ago. I like lots of time to integrate the knowledge and enjoy.

However I did take a taos ski week and got something out of it. IMO, if its a good lesson where you learn something, there is no need for more than 1-2 per season (~50 days on snow). But if your working on something then keep working with the same coach until it clicks. Don't change horses mid stream.

Very good point.

But....here is another way of looking at it.

If a "drill" is hard enough for a given person that you need a coach/observer to even do the drill, is that drill really even useful for you? I say NO. My view is that if you can not do "a drill" right, and know it is right, then you are probably getting ahead of yourself and trying to do THE WRONG DRILL.

Here is a good example, from personal experience. I started doing one ski drills, but every now and again would get myself in trouble, and get hung up, lose forward pressure and get back. One ski drills can hurt you if you do not have fore-aft control down. So I swallowed my pride, and went back and spent a ton of time doing falling leaf/whirlybird drills. You gotta be humble and willing to do the basics.

Pretty much this. I have definitely tried drills and been unable to do them at all. Then tried them years later and was able to do them without much trouble. Drills are like achievements in a video game. Not the same as knowing how to play.

IMO, focusing on technique, lessons and drills is probably too big a deal as expressed by the posters on this thread here. Drills are for two things:

• Experimentation and Playing with new ways of moving, when you're learning new ways of moving.
• Moving mediations used as a touchstone to reminding what you need to focus on when things are going wrong in your skiing. Remembering old ways of moving.

That is to say, the only time I am thinking about technique is when I am doing a drill. When the drill is over, its time to go do.

My thinking about my skiing is much more conceptual and more of a feel thing. Maybe focus on one thing for a run, rhythm, balance, or absorption... Even things like line and tactics its not really a lot of step by step. More like feel feel my way down a run - or "See ball; hit ball" - to borrow a baseball saying. IMO, If you have to think about what to do next then the show is over.

I will say that it is important that when I feel uncomfortable or like I am skiing bad, I always stop everything and go back to an easy green run like little cat for a few runs and do a drill or two per run, that has so far always solved the problem before it spirals out of control.

My kids asked me on closing day, what's my fave run at snow basin. I couldn't answer right away because there are so many that I like. But after a bit of reflection its probably little cat.

 

[Frenchman]

It's variable and up to you (and your wallet, for many). Rather than thinking in terms of days and ratio of lesson/free skiing days, I encourage you to think about taking a lesson when you need some external help. That could be revisiting something you are already took lessons about but can't get quite right, or having new goals. In between lessons, ski, and have fun. You don't need every ski outing to be focused on what you're working on: that can take the pleasure out of skiing. Make progress, be diligent, and when stuck or in need of new goals... reach out to a pro.

 

[slowrider]

I ski with a few L3s & a head race coach about once a month. Occasionally I'll ask for a pointer. Otherwise I read & watch videos.
Then it takes time to process and ingrain a movement. I'm a slow learner but determined.