I'm new to the world of ski tuning and thanks to my racer daughter am diving in head first. I've always wanted to tune my own skis and my family's so excited to go on this journey. I want to get the best possible gear starting out and just master it. The first purchase I'm targeting is an edge tuning machine. I want world cup quality and don't want to sound pompous but I'm willing to pay for the best. I've looked at Snowglide which looks awesome and has great US presence and support but I want this to be something my daughter will learn to use and can travel with for race prep, the downside of the Snowglide appears to be the dust generation so I'm curious about the Ratte machines which have dust collection and while there are a couple posts about them I can find very little information online about them. I'd greatly appreciate any feedback on these units and if anyone has experience or info on the Ratte and can either set me straight I'd be eternally greatful! This ski tuning business is interesting, many seem to guard their secrets in the race realm and don't want to give too much info.
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Ratte Edge Tuner
- Thread starter Mp29
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What do you mean by “World Cup quality”?
Quality of the edge or the power tool?
Maybe @Primoz or @Swiss Toni knows the status of this Ratte machine.
I would run the other way, or go to Italy and try to get one. Then you’ll spend significant time just dealing with a machine no one else has. That’s a significant disadvantage, not an advantage.
Likely you could get your own 120V 60hz power supply, the motor is probably 12V or 24.
How old is your daughter? Is she experienced with hand tools or power tools? All those machines are big. You’re likely better off with a battery Razor tune. Especially for portability.
It’s hard to say whether learning hand tuning is easier, prob not, but you do get fundamental knowledge and skill. It’s also different knowing you don’t depend on a machine.
There’s also Carot. You use it edge up like the Swix Evo or Toko. That’s generally more difficult, esp for smaller hands.
Quality of the edge or the power tool?
Maybe @Primoz or @Swiss Toni knows the status of this Ratte machine.
I would run the other way, or go to Italy and try to get one. Then you’ll spend significant time just dealing with a machine no one else has. That’s a significant disadvantage, not an advantage.
Likely you could get your own 120V 60hz power supply, the motor is probably 12V or 24.
How old is your daughter? Is she experienced with hand tools or power tools? All those machines are big. You’re likely better off with a battery Razor tune. Especially for portability.
It’s hard to say whether learning hand tuning is easier, prob not, but you do get fundamental knowledge and skill. It’s also different knowing you don’t depend on a machine.
There’s also Carot. You use it edge up like the Swix Evo or Toko. That’s generally more difficult, esp for smaller hands.
Don’t know about that. At the level you’re talking, there really are no secrets.
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I see the Ratte is in certain places in US, US Ski team has one or two apparently and there are others around so it may not be a complete black hole. By WC quality I mean I just want to know when she's in the starting gate she has the best she can get as far as tuning is concerned. I'm hunting for more info on it though and will update this as I think could be useful for others.
Then you want to invest in a serviceman/woman, not equipment.
No matter what machine or hand tools you use, the biggest indicator of the quality of the tune is skill of the person doing the tuning (you know, assuming they care/are paying attention/aren't super drunk).
A world cup tech using decent hand tools is going to produce a better ski than a novice tuner with the top-of-the-top machine more times than not. I've had athletes on skis that have never seen a machine before outperform others on better equipment tuned using the top-of-the-line machines ... at NorAms. It's the skier, not the equipment. Having consistently tuned equipment for both training and racing, so the athlete knows exactly how the ski will respond, is more important than the tune being "great". If the race tune is different than the training tune, you've added almost no value until the athlete is at a truly elite level (at which point, you will not be tuning their skis).
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Those are some serious machines. Snowglide... Trione... The Ratte does seem to be in the same crowd. But I've never seen it on the Far East Cup.
I have no info on this Ratte, never saw it, never used it. Only machine I have ever used is Trione, so no help from me regarding this. But to be at least a bit productive, I would strongly suggest to learn how to do skis by hand first, and only then start thinking about machine, especially about machine worth several 1000eur. Buying 2 or 3000eur worth Trione, which is machine that's probably most used one on WC, without any idea how to properly prepare skis, won't make your skis be WC ready, or even recreational skiing ready. Knowing how to prepare skis, even with just file, guide and diamond stone, and knowing what to do for certain conditions will be much more effective with way better result. But in today's world, when supposingly everything can be bought, idea of shelling 3000eur and no long term learning is needed, is definitely nice one. Unfortunately there's little chances it will bring much success. But if you really want to go this way, then my suggestion is definitely Trione. It's awesome machine.
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The Ratte (Rat) was originally marketed as the Maus (Mouse) http://www.maus-skipro.com/ it first appeared in 2011, a number of people were involved in its design and development including Edi Unterberger (Marcel Hirscher’s former ski tech). Judging by the steady stream of World Cup ski techs visiting Daniele Pesamosca’s shop it is currently the go-to edge grinder on the World Cup circuit.
As well as being more precise than hand filing the edges remain sharper for longer, they claim that they will last for 120 gates in world cup training, the Ratte also has much better ergonomics than most of its competitors and having dust collection is a big advantage if you have to tune lots of skis.
All this comes at a price, I don’t now what the current price is, but a couple of years ago they were rumored to cost around 6000 euros. Unless you plan to travel to Italy and pick one up you will have to get it shipped to the US and if it needs to be serviced / repaired at some point you will have to ship it back.
At the moment the Ratte would be massive overkill and wouldn’t bring your daughter any advantage, an edge grinder is certainly nice to have, but is by no means essential. Bear in mind that you will still have to manually plane the sidewalls, which is not an easy task to master. If you do decide to buy an edge grinder make sure you get one that runs along the base of the ski.
As well as being more precise than hand filing the edges remain sharper for longer, they claim that they will last for 120 gates in world cup training, the Ratte also has much better ergonomics than most of its competitors and having dust collection is a big advantage if you have to tune lots of skis.
All this comes at a price, I don’t now what the current price is, but a couple of years ago they were rumored to cost around 6000 euros. Unless you plan to travel to Italy and pick one up you will have to get it shipped to the US and if it needs to be serviced / repaired at some point you will have to ship it back.
At the moment the Ratte would be massive overkill and wouldn’t bring your daughter any advantage, an edge grinder is certainly nice to have, but is by no means essential. Bear in mind that you will still have to manually plane the sidewalls, which is not an easy task to master. If you do decide to buy an edge grinder make sure you get one that runs along the base of the ski.
I will circle back to the again, when we were asked "What was on Scottie Label's skis to make him go fast?" (referring to his wax) we would say "Scottie Lebel". Yes, you want to set yoru daughter up for success, that tuner aint't it there are probably 20 ways better to spend 6000 Euros to do that.
Thank you all very much for your feedback. Great stuff.
I should clarify that I completely understand that the skier is the driver here and no decent tune will dictate success. My goal is simply to be able to tune not just her skis buy my own and other freinds/family members on a daily basis throughout the season as quickly and efficiently as possible. I also don't want to diminish the fact that hand tuning is just as good or better than any machine because I totally get that I sound like a jerky race dad that wants to just buy success, that's not my goal believe me. I believe hard work, sacrifice, talent and good coaching are the only route to success in all facets of life whether sport, business or elsewhere. Since I'm starting out on this journey from scratch I want to go with something excellent one time even if it's more expensive, learn this system and repeat it while never having to then reinvest later wishing I'd bought the best I can find to start out. It's just how I do things, I've always found the cheaper way is the expensive way whether it's product durability that fails or I just progress to the bigger better version and spend the money later. I am also very committed to learning the craft of hand tuning so I understand the fundamentals and then have the mack daddy equipment to get a consistently excellent result fast and efficiently. I also realize that there are many ways to skin a cat but my time is my greatest commodity so I'm just looking to get a process that I can learn well and take with me where needed on her journey in racing and for my own skis without having to rely on other people to provide it for me.
I should clarify that I completely understand that the skier is the driver here and no decent tune will dictate success. My goal is simply to be able to tune not just her skis buy my own and other freinds/family members on a daily basis throughout the season as quickly and efficiently as possible. I also don't want to diminish the fact that hand tuning is just as good or better than any machine because I totally get that I sound like a jerky race dad that wants to just buy success, that's not my goal believe me. I believe hard work, sacrifice, talent and good coaching are the only route to success in all facets of life whether sport, business or elsewhere. Since I'm starting out on this journey from scratch I want to go with something excellent one time even if it's more expensive, learn this system and repeat it while never having to then reinvest later wishing I'd bought the best I can find to start out. It's just how I do things, I've always found the cheaper way is the expensive way whether it's product durability that fails or I just progress to the bigger better version and spend the money later. I am also very committed to learning the craft of hand tuning so I understand the fundamentals and then have the mack daddy equipment to get a consistently excellent result fast and efficiently. I also realize that there are many ways to skin a cat but my time is my greatest commodity so I'm just looking to get a process that I can learn well and take with me where needed on her journey in racing and for my own skis without having to rely on other people to provide it for me.
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I understand your desire to give your daughter every advantage, but you don't need (or want) World Cup equipment to compete as a junior. Bode Miller was a middle of the pack junior racer until he switched to a retail recreational ski and won a national championship. You don't need to work your edges with a 1000 grit ceramic stone like a WC tech. A little coarseness on the edge gives better grip at the expense of glide, which is usually a good trade off for skiers with less-than-elite skills.
Your daughter can be perfectly competetive if you just work the side edge with 100 grit stone every day. A Razor Tune or a Swix EVO is a little faster but the results are the same. Most of those other machines are too costly and either require more operator skill or more set up time, so they are not appropriate for home use IMO.
dm
Your daughter can be perfectly competetive if you just work the side edge with 100 grit stone every day. A Razor Tune or a Swix EVO is a little faster but the results are the same. Most of those other machines are too costly and either require more operator skill or more set up time, so they are not appropriate for home use IMO.
dm
I agree. It's clear the Ratte is way overkill and not going that route. I'm thinking snow glide is the perfect option for me long term to keep all our skis in top shape, even that may be overkill but I think long term it will be a real asset. They have great support and service which will be key for me.
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If the base grind is not done properly, or decent enough, you could spend $10k dollars on an edge machine and the ski will still be terrible. Not talking structure either.
These poor bases are spit out by machines costing the better part of half a million dollars, or more.
These poor bases are spit out by machines costing the better part of half a million dollars, or more.
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Razor Tune is becoming the standard for race programs around here. Even with the battery It's about 1/3 the cost of a Snow Glide. You can get a Swix for about the price of a spare Snow Glide grinding wheel.
dm
dm
Totally agree. I learned this the hard way but have a great shop now that base grinds all my skis and sets edge angles pre season. I’ve used them for basic edge and wax thereafter but now looking to do those two myself and leave the rest to them as far as repairs or additional base grinds if needed throughout season.
Now that I’ve got edges figured out what do you all recommend for waxing. I’ve done the old school iron melted wax and scrape which is great but I see there are rollers now that make it easier to apply. Anyone use those or overkill?
Haha! Well…..
Wax machine/rollers/whatever they should be called in English, are awesome, when you have 5, 10 or 20 pairs to wax with same wax. For waxing single pair with one wax, and second pair with other wax, or waxing 2 or 3 pairs, it's waste of time, and waste of money. It takes some 20+ minutes to heat up and melt wax in can, it takes way longer to cool off and to wax in can to get hard again, so you are ready for transport, you put whole bunch of wax in can, and then it stays there, so not really easy to change it for different waxes. Sure cans can be exchanged, but each extra can with roller costs something, and you still need plenty of wax in it to work properly. Not to mention reheating wax, especially race wax multiple times is awesome thing to destroy wax and get way slower skis then they should be.
So most of people use wax rollers for transport wax, where they wax multiple pairs with same wax and it doesn't matter if wax is reheated 100 times.
Oh and one more thing... someone might think you have less chances to burn base or damage skis with rollers... well not really. There's way more control with iron then with rollers, and with 2 or 3 passes over roller (there's no way to get enough wax fully covering ptex with single pass) skis is hotter then it would ever be with iron.
Thoughts on this?
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Infrared (IR) Waxer 1.0
You've probably seen Infrared Waxing machines in your local ski shop. Now, you can have the ease and effectiveness of an IR waxer right at home. EFFECTIVE: IR waxers help the bases to absorb wax. You can actually watch the wax disappear into the bases as you are waxing SUSTAINABLE: These devices...
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