Realities of Female Guiding

[Analisa]

Great write up about some of the systemic issues that affect women in the guiding industry. It's published in Climbing Magazine, but many of these women are also the ones teaching AIARE courses or leading ski mountaineering trips.

I think the biggest takeaway I got in terms of what I can do as a client is to speak up when something problematic is going down, and for male participants, to do so even if there aren't female guides or participants present. And if you take a class or a trip by a rad chick guide, no need to make a big deal about it. They're just regular people at work who sherpa insane amounts of weight with slightly smaller bodies.

https://www.climbing.com/people/freedom-of-the-hills-guiding/

 

[RachelV]

That was a really well-written article; thanks for sharing.

I've done a handful of guided outings and taken a few classes (AIARE 1, a multi-pitch climbing course, a handful of guided climbs) and have never had a woman as a guide. I think I'll request women guides when I do that kind of thing going forward.

I did have a woman guide (and an all-lady group) on my heli trip a few years ago and it was a really great experience all around. I understand the "no need to make a big deal about" having a woman guide, for sure, but there's still just something really nice about seeing a woman kick ass in places where it's comparatively rare to see women at all. Looks like 2 out of 24 guides are women where I took my trip: https://www.alaskaheliski.com/heli-ski-guides/

 

[James]

You can always look here. That site was sold a few years ago. I see they got Patagonia to sponsor it.

https://chickswithpicks.net/

 

[KevinF]

I did a guided private hike a few weeks ago in New Hampshire's White Mountains up a marked trail that is at the limit of my rock-scrambling abilities (courage ?).

My male guide was 100% competent, but during our outing he just struck me as being "bored" (for lack of a better word), or at least wishing he was doing "something else".

End result: we got up my a route that is "NFW solo", but it also wasn't the most fulfilling (enjoyable?) hike I've done either. We took the easy route down (five miles, 4,000 vertical feet down or so) and at one point he commented that he can trail run it in 1.5 hours. Uhhh, yeah, well, I can't. Sorry dude. Hot date tonight or something?

At any rate... they do have female guides. Next time I book with them (there are other NH routes I want to hike / climb that I'll never do without a rope), I think I'll be requesting a female guide.

 

[Ken_R]

Great write up about some of the systemic issues that affect women in the guiding industry. It's published in Climbing Magazine, but many of these women are also the ones teaching AIARE courses or leading ski mountaineering trips.

I think the biggest takeaway I got in terms of what I can do as a client is to speak up when something problematic is going down, and for male participants, to do so even if there aren't female guides or participants present. And if you take a class or a trip by a rad chick guide, no need to make a big deal about it. They're just regular people at work who sherpa insane amounts of weight with slightly smaller bodies.

https://www.climbing.com/people/freedom-of-the-hills-guiding/

It would be awesome to see more women guiding.

In my line of work I am used to working with women both under my direction and most times under theirs. I really am used to looking past gender. It is not even a factor for me. I look for enthusiasm, knowledge, skill and being able to work calmly under pressure. I work mainly in the film industry. The department I work in, Camera, has been historically dominated by men but over the past 15 years many women have started working in it and it has been awesome to see. I have worked also for some amazing Producers that happened to be women as well.

Unfortunately not all men think like me. It just plain sucks what a lot of women still have to deal with.

 

[James]

I want to ski with this guide-
https://www.powder-extreme.com/giulia

 

[jmeb]

Thank you for sharing this.

I'd be fascinated to know if there is any analysis on different decision making -- on average -- between male and female guides. One of the more unsettling parts of my haute route trip was knowing that we were 6 fit guys, all aged 25-40, making decisions out there. With the addition of the expert halo of the male guide who has been guiding in a zone for 15+ years. In general, I find I'm a bit uncomfortable in ski-culture situations as they are mostly male-dominated. (Probably added to the massive difference than my place of work which is 85% female/15% male, with 100% female leadership.) And I know historically I haven't spoken up all the times I should have about behaviors that were sexist or toxic. Lots to improve on.

There is a reason I try to plan all my larger backcountry objectives with at least one women in the group. And it's not just because women complain less and bring better snacks. Statistically, recreational ski touring groups with women make fewer fatal errors.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

I have done a couple of intro courses with "backcountry babes". I have been extremely impressed with the knowledge and skills of the guides and the emphasis on safety in the classes. I was impressed by how the guides worked very hard to make it a great experience for everyone even though the skill level and endurance level of the group was varied.

 

[cantunamunch]

It would be awesome to see more women guiding.

The best guides I have ever had, climbing or whitewater, were female. This thread made me sad - we haven't improved our gender's reputation, have we?


.

 

[fatbob]

Men can be shits. Can't say I've ever really been offerred a female ski guide but certainly wouldn't object. Some of the stuff in that article is hard to compensate for like having young kids. I can totally believe in the risk mitigation of having women in any group. Anything that reduces the swinging dick contest and the never back down attitude even if for the neanderthals it's because they've got to look out for the little women.

 

[karlo]

I want to ski with this guide-
https://www.powder-extreme.com/giulia

She guides?! I want to ski with her too! Who else? I’m now heading back to the page to look up the where’s and when’s.

 

[Pequenita]

Thank you for sharing this.

I'd be fascinated to know if there is any analysis on different decision making -- on average -- between male and female guides. One of the more unsettling parts of my haute route trip was knowing that we were 6 fit guys, all aged 25-40, making decisions out there. With the addition of the expert halo of the male guide who has been guiding in a zone for 15+ years. In general, I find I'm a bit uncomfortable in ski-culture situations as they are mostly male-dominated. (Probably added to the massive difference than my place of work which is 85% female/15% male, with 100% female leadership.) And I know historically I haven't spoken up all the times I should have about behaviors that were sexist or toxic. Lots to improve on.

There is a reason I try to plan all my larger backcountry objectives with at least one women in the group. And it's not just because women complain less and bring better snacks. Statistically, recreational ski touring groups with women make fewer fatal errors.

There are studies on decision-making in avalanche terrain, group composition, and fatality. It's not just gender mix - it's the gender mix and the level of training everyone in the group has. Like, is a group with 2 women with avy training and 2 guys without more/less fatal than a group with 1 woman without avy training, 2 guys with, 1 guy without, etc. One of the guides named in the story, but not profiled, told me about this.

 

[Corgski]

Hmm, there may be a bit of deflection going on in this article. Reading it and checking certification requirements it seems to me that the AMGA may be behaving in a monopolistic manner by creating artificial hurdles for aspiring guides. This has been having a disparate impact on women and the AMGA leadership is trying to deflect blame, preferably onto other men who may also have been negatively affected by these practices. When an organization has a three buzzword committee name (Diversity, Equity and Inclusion) it just shouts "There is something wrong with our business practices we want you to ignore."

It would not be hard to create a more woman friendly process whereby potential guides are still required to meet the required standard but without the same costs and disruption that they currently face. Of course, as is so common in this sort of setup, some number of the earlier members were spared all this inconvenience by being simply grandfathered in.

When it comes to the other more interpersonal issues, unless a women is unfortunate enough to be in a totally dysfunctional environment where all the decent guys have fled (it happens), I would hope you would find a significant number of guys who are really open to making things better. Unfortunately, like most people, they really do not know how to best to deal with clients or fellow employees who have personality disorders (well, speaking for myself here, just assuming for everyone else).

 

[Analisa]

In my line of work I am used to working with women both under my direction and most times under theirs. I really am used to looking past gender.

I see a lot of conversation around bias that people don't "see" gender (or race, or disabilities, etc), but the vast majority (95%+) do. And it doesn't make us bad people. There's a test in psych studies called the implicit associations test that measures unconscious bias (vs. explicit attitudes) and is publicly available. The results aren't an end-all, be-all like it's described to be by some (like Malcom Gladwell in Blink), and can fluctuate over time.

I'll be the first to admit that I have gender biases - especially in the outdoors - even as a woman who expects to be seen as a capable partner and someone who's a leader in an organization aimed at increasing participation and expanding the skill set of women in the outdoors. I have a tendency to conflate speed with skill and to scrutinize female partners for their speed skinning, downhill chops, or rescue skills. They're tendencies that only become problematic if I'm not paying attention and counter-correcting them. They're problematic in that I want to be an advocate for women in the outdoors, but also for my own personal safety. I went out touring as a twosome with a super athletic guy friend who had little experience & no education and ended up treating him like an equal in decision making when I had concerns about stability. 20 minutes after we decided to keep going, I got swept. Now I make a point to correct, and ask male potential partners the same questions about their abilities & experience as female partners. And I started racing skimo last winter, which has opened up my social circles and introduced me to women who are wicked fast disrupt a lot of my perceptions.

"Biased" is a dirty word and such a derogatory thing to be accused of, but I don't think it should be. The vast, vast majority of us are biased. I think we end up trying to assuage ourselves that we're good and fair people than working towards improvement. Likewise, we miss conversations within marginalized groups - like the fact that it's totally possible to be a woman with gender biases and how to correct those.

 

[Ken_R]

I see a lot of conversation around bias that people don't "see" gender (or race, or disabilities, etc), but the vast majority (95%+) do. And it doesn't make us bad people. There's a test in psych studies called the implicit associations test that measures unconscious bias (vs. explicit attitudes) and is publicly available. The results aren't an end-all, be-all like it's described to be by some (like Malcom Gladwell in Blink), and can fluctuate over time.

I'll be the first to admit that I have gender biases - especially in the outdoors - even as a woman who expects to be seen as a capable partner and someone who's a leader in an organization aimed at increasing participation and expanding the skill set of women in the outdoors. I have a tendency to conflate speed with skill and to scrutinize female partners for their speed skinning, downhill chops, or rescue skills. They're tendencies that only become problematic if I'm not paying attention and counter-correcting them. They're problematic in that I want to be an advocate for women in the outdoors, but also for my own personal safety. I went out touring as a twosome with a super athletic guy friend who had little experience & no education and ended up treating him like an equal in decision making when I had concerns about stability. 20 minutes after we decided to keep going, I got swept. Now I make a point to correct, and ask male potential partners the same questions about their abilities & experience as female partners. And I started racing skimo last winter, which has opened up my social circles and introduced me to women who are wicked fast disrupt a lot of my perceptions.

"Biased" is a dirty word and such a derogatory thing to be accused of, but I don't think it should be. The vast, vast majority of us are biased. I think we end up trying to assuage ourselves that we're good and fair people than working towards improvement. Likewise, we miss conversations within marginalized groups - like the fact that it's totally possible to be a woman with gender biases and how to correct those.

I wasnt always like this, took me decades, and I am always learning and increasing my awareness.

"I went out touring as a twosome with a super athletic guy friend who had little experience & no education and ended up treating him like an equal in decision making when I had concerns about stability"

Did you know that at the time or after the fact?

 

[karlo]

I'd be fascinated to know if there is any analysis on different decision making -- on average -- between male and female guides.

A guide I know is an industrial level avy mitigation expert, developing strategies for securing train lines, power plants, other infrastructure. If both are qualified, he prefers the woman. From his experience, they make sounder risk/benefit decisions.

Me, I've had excellent experiences with both men and women guides. That said, it was a woman lead guide and a woman tail guide that let me and another guy get separated from the group, assuming we understood the directions, which we discovered we didn't, in an Idaho summer on a blistering hot day. We got lost. Well, not lost, but wasted time looking for the group and ran out of water. It was like in the movies. As i approached the river, I couldn't help myself and ran to it, stumbled in and immersed myself, then gulped down innumerable handfuls of water. Forget iodine tablets or filtration. I really felt like i was going to die of heat exhaustion. There will always be a fair share of good and poor guides, and misfortune, amongst both men and women.

 

[socalgal]

There's a test in psych studies called the implicit associations test that measures unconscious bias (vs. explicit attitudes) and is publicly available. The results aren't an end-all, be-all like it's described to be by some (like Malcom Gladwell in Blink), and can fluctuate over time.

I just spent awhile taking the tests. Thanks for the link.

 

[Analisa]

@Ken_R Knew he had a week on a hut trip with Crested Butte ski patrol, which could potentially mean a lot of learning or little. I didn’t really realize that I should've been much more scrupulous in my partner selection when he showed up at a later tour with no avy gear and had a total “you can’t tell me what to do!” moment when I told him he couldn’t be a part of our Rainier team if he didn’t own/bring a puffy.

He meshes really well with the guys I tour with and has taken his AIARE and a glacier travel class since. I’ve also learned I need to wear my most bitchin’ pair of bossy pants if we ever end up in the same group, because I think there biases on his side as well that make him less likely to listen.

 

[karlo]

I just spent awhile taking the tests. Thanks for the link.

Did you pass that psych test?

 

[Scruffy]

Nice article. Thanks for posting it.

For Engle, the questions to ask are “How has the culture of our society disproportionately affected women?” and “How do we shift those cultural and structural institutions and contexts to allow women to manifest fully?”

In entrenched industries like guiding, change often happens slowly and only with persistence. Institutional obstacles have to be overcome, paradigms smashed, and hackles raised. The first step is to have these conversations, to be writing and talking and educating others. “I really think there’s a desire to make change happen, but change also has to include men, and how they are impacted by stereotypes and expectations,” says Nalty. “People can’t do better until they know better.”