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Recommendations for Slalom Shaped but Softer Flexing short-radiused ski for aspiring technical skier

ADKmel

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I demo'd Salomon Sons of a Blast- 68 under foot.
I thought they were amazing. fast turning, very carvey skis. They loved being on edge.
Pocket rockets but could ski them slowly (Sort of- i'm not known for slow skiing)

It was really fun leaving railroad tracks all over the place. Big turns, fast short radius turns, they were a rock Solid ski
slow speed or at mach 5- The "Feeling" you state.. it is one I love to feel.. I liken it to exiting an airplane on a sky dive- feels really cool to be 'out in front'.

Hoping you get to demo some of the suggestions posted so far.
 

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martyg

Making fresh tracks
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Ask your trainers. They will have far better info on what ski will provide the feedback that you need, based on your actual, observable movement patterns.

Robin Barnes and Mike Rogan are in your neighborhood. Seek them out. I know of few Sources of the Truth that would be more reliable.
 

James

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I demo'd Salomon Sons of a Blast- 68 under foot.
I thought they were amazing. fast turning, very carvey skis. They loved being on edge.
Pocket rockets but could ski them slowly (Sort of- i'm not known for slow skiing)

It was really fun leaving railroad tracks all over the place. Big turns, fast short radius turns, they were a rock Solid ski
slow speed or at mach 5- The "Feeling" you state.. it is one I love to feel.. I liken it to exiting an airplane on a sky dive- feels really cool to be 'out in front'.

Hoping you get to demo some of the suggestions posted so far.
Love the color.
Note to Salomon- your mobile website is terrible. Went looking for the Sons of a Blast, found nothing. Clicked category link on your page, ended up with-
D90F7555-499A-4535-AF95-DB97C1ACEE89.jpeg
 
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Tim Hodgson

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You know I was thinking about how the tip rocker actually helps my DPS Alchemist Wailer 100RP hook up when carved.

For those of you with SL skis with slight tip rocker, does it actually help that turn entry tip edging move at 11-10 o'clock?
 

DocGKR

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As I mentioned elsewhere, I have spent a lot of time the past few seasons on “racer-ish” sport carving skis in the 70-80mm width range. I typically like my 70-80mm waist sport carvers to have about a 15-16m turn radius and usually get them at about eye level. I view these in two camps—those closer to 70mm and those nearer 80mm. The sport carvers closer to 70mm tend to offer performance reminiscent of a FIS SL in general sensation, but somewhat less energetic and aggressive, with a bit more relaxed turn, larger sweet spot, a greater tolerance of minor mistakes, tons of easy quick turning fun, but lacking the ultimate top end speed and stability of a FIS racing ski. At the other end of the spectrum, the sport carvers closer to 80mm tend to be more All Mountain in capability, offering good performance in a wide variety of terrain and snow quality—at home on groomers, bumps, spring slush, and even fresh snow up to 6” or so, and excel at a wide range of speeds and turn shapes. If I desire a 12-14m radius turn, that is when I use a FIS SL. Thanks to ScotsSkier who recommended the Rossi 165 FIS SL's a while back and I've found them to be one of the most fun skis I have ever used for resort on-piste free skiing. For non-gate, free skiing, the Rossi FIS SL is quicker in turns, has a higher speed limit on-groomers, and provides better edge hold on hard ice than many wider sport carving skis. However a FIS SL is not as forgiving of errors, not as capable in fresh snow, nor is it as adaptable to as wide a variety of terrain as the wider sport carvers.

1606505469268.png
 
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Tim Hodgson

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Well there's a quiver! I am definitely looking at 70mm waist and under.
You show your Rossi Hero. Is that the FIS?
If not, how do they compare?
 

dj61

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I'm really having trouble understanding how a 200 lb skier can find any SL radius carving ski too stiff to easily bend. (tip ski allow weight to press down on the ski - no problem). Are you only skiing champagne powder?

That being said, the Stöckli Lazer SC would be my choice for an easier-to-bend Stöckli Lazer SL.

Also, if you learned to carve tip-to-tail, you might like the Fischer (SC or Curve) models and the Stöckli SL/SC better than a lot of other models, most of which incorporate tip rocker to make them more forgiving. The other models work fine if you already know what's going to happen when you get them fully tipped on edge; it's just the initiation that's a bit of a jump.
Neither Stockli's have a tip rocker.
 
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Tim Hodgson

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Holy crap that is a good deal!

But I don't think I want or need a world cup ski although Frank says that is not as stiff compared to true racing skis . . .?
 

James

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^ Ships from Bulgaria.
It’s not a “race” ski btw, let alone a wcup ski. Plenty people love that ski and it has the plastic to keep snow from coming through the hole.
 

HardDaysNight

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A skier’s ability to bend a ski on hard pack snow is not constrained at all by how stiff or soft the ski is. It is entirely dependent on the edge angle the skier is able to achieve and, in order to bend the ski at the top of the turn, on his ability to get that edge angle early. At an angle of, say, 30° ski bend is pretty minimal and a soft ski is not bent any more than a stiff ski of the same shape. 60° edge angle and we’re cooking. It’s a question of skill not mass!
 

François Pugh

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Thank you cantunamunch !

François Pugh while it is true that I can bend my Salomon Equip FIS race skis at full lateral extension, I cannot at an 11 o'clock turn initiation.

Gellie describes what I already do and what I want to perfect with the word "push" in his "How to Create Early Pressure Webinar" (when you open it, it is also entitled "Early pressure in your carved turns - Aug 2020."

It refers to the 11-10 o'clock initiation of a carved turn where the torso topples downhill, the old inside ski becomes the new outside ski and skier "pushes" on the tip of that ski to create early pressure and bend in that ski. He describes the skier's feeling as hanging upside down. I don't want to overstate my ability, but I do that now.

For me it requires my old forward leaning Lange L10 Race boots, and a shaped slalom ski with a softer shovel (Dynastar Contact) and I do it at slower speeds on steeper terrain.

I am looking for a ski to help me perfect that turn entry move.

I think tip rocker would actually inhibit or delay the tip catch required by that movement but, again, I am open minded.
I think I understand what you are saying.

I also like to have instant well controlled engagement of the next turn as early as possible. I have an older version of the Fischer RC4 WC SC with a length of 165 cm and a turn radius of 13m, which I usually ski with my old forward-leaning (compared to todays typical boots) ski boots. By all accounts the newer SCs are if anything, a little bit softer and more compliant). I have also (for science and the advancement of skiing ogwink ) varied my weight from 180 lbs to 120 lbs.

At 180 lbs I found the Fischer WC SCs were easy-peasy to bend at all speeds and to what ever turn radius within it's capabilities.
At 150 lbs the effort required to bend them was noticeable, but only after trying out a softer pair of skis. Nevertheless, I can see how if you didn't already have it down it would be a hindrance to learning.
At 120 lbs the skis have to be skied aggressively to perform satisfactorily.
I think you would have no problem adapting the Fischer WC SC to your purpose. The softer alternative would be the Stockli Lazer SC.

I also think you are correct about avoiding tip rocker for your purpose. After spending a day or three on skis like the Head i. Rally and Rossi Hero ST, I find that there is a bit of a disconnect in communication with the tips between turns. Logically the tips need to have good contact with the snow/ice to give you what you are looking for, and they can't do that if they aren't touching it.

The Fischer RC4 WC SC is not a racing ski; Fischer is following the widespread pattern of making the name of a less racy, more forgiving ski "racier" so that wanna-be racers with no skills will buy it and be flattered by it, not disappointed. At one point Fischer had a model below the SC, called the SC race, which was basically an RX8. It's just marketing BS.
 
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Tim Hodgson

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François Pugh I would have given you two "Likes" if I could for your devotion to "science" and because you have nailed my experience.

On the tip rocker thing, your intuition and mine are the same. However, I am open minded because my DPS Alchemist Wailer 100RP has tip rocker and once it engages, it pulls the rest of the ski into a bend behind it. So, it is an interesting concept in a SL ski, no? Especially if the rockered tip is wider than the traditional width further aft?

A skier’s ability to bend a ski on hard pack snow is not constrained at all by how stiff or soft the ski is. It is entirely dependent on the edge angle the skier is able to achieve and, in order to bend the ski at the top of the turn, on his ability to get that edge angle early. At an angle of, say, 30° ski bend is pretty minimal and a soft ski is not bent any more than a stiff ski of the same shape. 60° edge angle and we’re cooking. It’s a question of skill not mass!

Understood. Let's assume that I have and can do bend the ski at 11-10 o'clock by pressuring the shovel and toppling downhill with that "hanging upside down feeling" and am looking for a ski which will make it easier for me to progress in doing so and additionally fully extending at 10-9 o'clock which I certainly do not do now.

And doing so at reasonable speeds. I know I need sufficient centripetal force generated by speed and steepness to fully incline. Am I naive to think that I can do it at slower speeds with a softer bending ski?
 
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François Pugh

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François Pugh I would have given you two "Likes" if I could for your devotion to "science" and because you have nailed my experience.

On the tip rocker thing, your intuition and mine are the same. However, I am open minded because my DPS Alchemist Wailer 100RP has tip rocker and once it engages, it pulls the rest of the ski into a bend behind it. So, it is an interesting concept in a SL ski, no? Especially if the rockered tip is wider than the traditional width further aft?
Key is "once it engages"; tip the ski over far enough to engage the full length and not only will it engage, but if properly designed, it will engage without needing much if any force to bend it as far as the rocker has already bent it; the shape of the bent ski due to tipping angle should match the rocker shape or maybe a little bit off.
 

HardDaysNight

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Am I naive to think that I can do it at slower speeds with a softer bending ski?

There are only two ways to control speed. The most obvious one is through friction, that is to say by skidding the ski across the snow. The second is by direction, allowing the path of the skis to determine your speed. By elongating the top of the turn you can moderate speed before reaching the fall line; to do so you need to create high edge angles when there is little pressure on the skis right at the top of the turn so that when the pressure comes to you a split second later the skis bend at once. How much bend you get depends on edge angle and the ski geometry, so no a softer bending ski will not make it possible to do this at a slower speed.
 

Tony S

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François Pugh I would have given you two "Likes" if I could for your devotion to "science" and because you have nailed my experience.

On the tip rocker thing, your intuition and mine are the same. However, I am open minded because my DPS Alchemist Wailer 100RP has tip rocker and once it engages, it pulls the rest of the ski into a bend behind it. So, it is an interesting concept in a SL ski, no? Especially if the rockered tip is wider than the traditional width further aft?



Understood. Let's assume that I have and can do bend the ski at 11-10 o'clock by pressuring the shovel and toppling downhill with that "hanging upside down feeling" and am looking for a ski which will make it easier for me to progress in doing so and additionally fully extending at 10-9 o'clock which I certainly do not do now.

And doing so at reasonable speeds. I know I need sufficient centripetal force generated by speed and steepness to fully incline. Am I naive to think that I can do it at slower speeds with a softer bending ski?
Sigh. This is one of those cases where some actual measurements or video could help. Fast, slow, steep, upside down. All fantastically subjective. Some on the site say these words, you watch them ski, and you say to yourself, "Whoa. She can ski." Others, not so much.

You can make beautiful arced turns going at what I call a moderate speed. You can't do it going slow. Some people's "fast" is still too slow.

At your size, if you are finding SL skis too stiff for doing what you describe, it's not the skis.

Anyway, sounds like the DPS Trainer is what you want. Have you read the reviews of that ski here?
 
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Tim Hodgson

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Sigh. This is one of those cases where some actual measurements or video could help. Fast, slow, steep, upside down. All fantastically subjective. Some on the site say these words, you watch them ski, and you say to yourself, "Whoa. She can ski." Others, not so much.

You can make beautiful arced turns going at what I call a moderate speed. You can't do it going slow. Some people's "fast" is still too slow.

At your size, if you are finding SL skis too stiff for doing what you describe, it's not the skis.

Anyway, sounds like the DPS Trainer is what you want. Have you read the reviews of that ski here?

Fair enough. I am looking for recommendations for skis for what I want to get better at which is technical carving. I really didn't want to tout my skiing ability. Just to better describe what I am looking for. And until I see me on video, I really don't want you guys and girls seeing me first. Because I could certainly be in that "not so much" category.

Which brings me back to skis. Because I do know this from other sports. Some equipment is better at doing some things than other equipment.

I would certainly consider a DPS ski. I don't see a DPS Trainer on the DPS website. . .
 

Noodler

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My personal opinion/beliefs for technical carving skis...

Unless you're skiing truly "hard" hard-pack (which we don't often have out West), skis under 70mm waists become a bit of a liability. They will tend to break through snow surface layers when you least expect it. My personal faves for groomer zoomin' in the West run more around the mid 70's in waist width. I don't find them noticeably slower to tip and I appreciate the additional platform that serves to save my a$$ when the hard-pack is suddenly not so hard. :)
 

James

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Good point. Actual packed powder where the ski can sink in and you boot out is pretty rare in the east.

I second the 157/8 size brought up before. You can learn a lot on a short ski.
Hell, if you want to carve big arcs get a 113-120ish carver to play around on. There you’ll have to stand in the middle...
 

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