Richi Berger. Just good skiing.

[geepers]

All North American official organizations will tell you you don't want to do this - which is why they can't teach this skiing...

C'mon... anyone?

Tell us we don't want to do what?

 

[tromano]

...only posting this here, because I was doing exactly just that in the orange pants run, first runs on a brand new Fischer WC SL thinking just "fast offset". The thing is mean, love it.



But doing that without any prior significant training in those precise movements? Not useful... not that any amount of said work guarantees any kind of good outcome (proof above, heh), but still, not useful.

Strangely to me the turns in this video look more interesting, fun and worthy as an outcome worth shooting for than basically any other video linked here which are purported to be technically superior skiing. This looks fun, most of the other look like they are doing a job of work... Which they probably are.

Excepting Riley M who is a joy to watch.

 

[dj61]

Again before you discuss what Richie is or is not doing, please watch his demo’s. He focuses on his technique in great detail and describes his distinctive techniques in short and longer turns. In one of his skate demo’s he talks about “screwing into a turn”. That is exactly what you see in the skiboot skiing demo. There is more active turning in his skiing that “simply” following the skis on edge or tipping the inside/outside foot.

 

[Sanity]

Again before you discuss what Richie is or is not doing, please watch his demo’s. He focuses on his technique in great detail and describes his distinctive techniques in short and longer turns. In one of his skate demo’s he talks about “screwing into a turn”. That is exactly what you see in the skiboot skiing demo. There is more active turning in his skiing that “simply” following the skis on edge or tipping the inside/outside foot.

Right, in the turn shaping video he says once your active turn shaping action comes to an end, the edge angle will increase and your skis run along their shape. This matches what must be happening based on the physical properties of the skis. Not only does Berger ski well, but he has an excellent understanding of what he's doing and is kind enough to describe it to everyone else.

 

[razie]

Again before you discuss what Richie is or is not doing, please watch his demo’s. He focuses on his technique in great detail and describes his distinctive techniques in short and longer turns. In one of his skate demo’s he talks about “screwing into a turn”. That is exactly what you see in the skiboot skiing demo. There is more active turning in his skiing that “simply” following the skis on edge or tipping the inside/outside foot.

I like that "screwing into the turn" - it resonates a lot. Up here a similar term is/was used a lot in race coaching, "coiling". Same sort of idea. Applies to most/all turns, especially of course shorts and slalom.

Of course, not much is passive in this fast skiing! My objection along this entire thread was against the "dogma" of "it's active rotary" or "pivoting" as if that describes this skiing at all. For me, it doesn't... and if for 5% or 10% of the turn, the carving is not obvious but also no pivoting is obvious, I cannot call that "active rotary".

To give you an example, take this, since I already made it and you brought up screwing/coiling:

He has screwed himself into the right footer turn / coiled himself. He maintains that coiling through skis flat, in the middle frames. That is not easy and takes a lot of "coiling" or "coiled" effort. His feet are nothing but relaxed, in fact his feet are working hard to keep the skis from unwinding and pivoting as they change edges through flat, his feet are still activated to turn the other way, up the hill - that's how you keep the flat ski from rotating. This is the part where most skiers would let go and rotate or pivot. His feet are working hard to keep the skis from rotating into the turn even as the angles increase. This is 100% carving technique, the exact opposite of pivoting a flat ski.

At some point, you need to stop the coiling, in the last frame - obviously, the skis must turn the other way eventually. As you transition from strong coiling effort to carve "the other way", what happens? The obvious will happen: if the ski was not on high enough edge angles to stay in place, it may rotate. So, as he transitions from coiling / the feet from turning up the hill (keep the skis from unwinding) to carving the turn, the ski may redirect slightly, especially given that insane rythm. Duh. Is there an "active shaping phase" going on at the same time? Meh, not really, I see the tips engaged and tracking, not redirecting - although the tails may slip some, but is it the extension with the ski on edge that slips the tails or active "rotary"? The extension that happens during the same time is the right timing for a carved turn, so I don't see an active shaping there, via foot rotation. Is the foot rotating some? Of course - it has to stop resisting (turn uphill) and complete the turn. Is there enough time to passively follow the ski shape along? At that rythm? Nope.

But we cannot have that discussion when some see just "ah, he's pivoting". Or "that skiing, it's active rotary, you see". Or that transition is a steering transition. Go back and see the comments and it's either "it's active rotary" or "he pivoted the flat skis" when it is exactly the contrary, as these frames show.

Here, we're simply lacking the vocabulary to have that discussion... the dictionary and the models used are too coarse to be useful to discuss this skiing. There's tons of other skiing, including of Berger, that this may be applicable to, but not this.

p.s. His drills are great. I do a ton of pivot slips, almost daily. Do my turns look like pivots or would describing my turns as "pivoting" capture the wrong part of the drill?

p.s.2 Tech detail: if to the uncoiling effort, when he stops the feet from torquing up the hill and starts activating them into the turn, if at that point he'd add any kind of steering from extra active foot rotation, he'd blow way past the fall line and not engage the ski to get that turn shape. This is why this skiing does not result from "pivot into an edge set" but from "carve into a short turn", which is training it from the other end of the spectrum, although it obviously requires many skills.

It's not this skiing, which is more on the other side of the spectrum (in this case more heel push than foot rotation, still - too many mechanisms at play, i do see why it's tempting to just say "it's just rotary"):

It is closer to this:

...which is not "all active rotary", pivoted...

Anyways, maybe this gives you a better insight into how I see things. Cheers.

 

[Sanity]

I like that "screwing into the turn" - it resonates a lot. Up here a similar term is/was used a lot in race coaching, "coiling". Same sort of idea. Applies to most/all turns, especially of course shorts and slalom.

Of course, not much is passive in this fast skiing! My objection along this entire thread was against the "dogma" of "it's active rotary" or "pivoting" as if that describes this skiing at all. For me, it doesn't... and if for 5% or 10% of the turn, the carving is not obvious but also no pivoting is obvious, I cannot call that "active rotary".

To give you an example, take this, since I already made it and you brought up screwing/coiling:

View attachment 152743

He has screwed himself into the right footer turn / coiled himself. He maintains that coiling through skis flat, in the middle frames. That is not easy and takes a lot of "coiling" or "coiled" effort. His feet are nothing but relaxed, in fact his feet are working hard to keep the skis from unwinding and pivoting as they change edges through flat, his feet are still activated to turn the other way, up the hill - that's how you keep the flat ski from rotating. This is the part where most skiers would let go and rotate or pivot. His feet are working hard to keep the skis from rotating into the turn even as the angles increase. This is 100% carving technique, the exact opposite of pivoting a flat ski.

At some point, you need to stop the coiling, in the last frame - obviously, the skis must turn the other way eventually. As you transition from strong coiling effort to carve "the other way", what happens? The obvious will happen: if the ski was not on high enough edge angles to stay in place, it may rotate. So, as he transitions from coiling / the feet from turning up the hill (keep the skis from unwinding) to carving the turn, the ski may redirect slightly, especially given that insane rythm. Duh. Is there an "active shaping phase" going on at the same time? Meh, not really. The extension that happens during the same time is the right timing for a carved turn, so I don't see an active shaping there, via foot rotation. Is the foot rotating some? Of course - it has to stop resisting (turn uphill) and complete the turn. Is there enough time to passively follow the ski shape along? At that rythm? Nope.

But we cannot have that discussion when some see just "ah, he's pivoting". Or "that skiing, it's active rotary, you see". Or that transition is a steering transition. Go back and see the comments and it's either "it's active rotary" or "he pivoted the flat skis" when it is exactly the contrary, as these frames show.

Here, we're simply lacking the vocabulary to have that discussion... the dictionary and the models used are too coarse to be useful to discuss this skiing. There's tons of other skiing, including of Berger, that this may be applicable to, but not this.

p.s. His drills are great. I do a ton of pivot slips, almost daily. Do my turns look like pivots or would describing my turns as "pivoting" capture the wrong part of the drill?

p.s.2 Tech detail: if to the uncoiling effort, when he stops the feet from torquing up the hill and starts activating them into the turn, if at that point he'd add any kind of steering from extra active foot rotation, he'd blow way past the fall line and not engage the ski to get that turn shape. This is why this skiing does not result from "pivot into an edge set" but from "carve into a short turn", which is training it from the other end of the spectrum, although it obviously requires many skills.

It's not this skiing, which is more on the other side of the spectrum (in this case more heel push than foot rotation, still - too many mechanisms at play, i do see why it's tempting to just say "it's just rotary"):

View attachment 152747

It is closer to this:

View attachment 152748

...which is not "all active rotary", pivoted...

Anyways, maybe this gives you a better insight into how I see things. Cheers.

Watch Berger's videos. He directly and unambiguously contradicts you.

Look how much ski rotation there is between the first picture and the second picture below. He rotates his skis counter clockwise a good bit while only having just barely gotten up on his left edges at the last split second. The only possible way to rotate counter clockwise is to be up on the left edges for a period of time, or use rotary, pivoting, steering, or whatever you want to call it except carving. Though, Berger says the main shaping comes after that picture once the tips are in the fall line, and you do see a sharper turn at that time than you do afterwards even though the ski hasn't been tipped more. I think a big difference between the shaping before the fall line and while in the fall line is that the skis are under pressure once he's in the fall line compared to being weightless through transition. So, he is claiming to do even more steering than I originally attributed, i.e. active steering while there is pressure.

 

[razie]

Yea -Let me do the math for you: the ski tips 40 degrees (from -20 to +20 ish) and during this time redirects uhh 3 degrees? That must be a lot of pivoting effort there... or was he working hard to keep it from pivoting and let a 3 degree slip?

Anyways. A Holliday break is good at this point, if I can muster one .

Happy Holidays, all.

 

[Sanity]

Yea -Let me do the math for you: the ski tips 40 degrees and redirects uhh 3? That must be a lot of pivoting effort there...

View attachment 152757

Only slight tipping at the last moment. There is no carving during that time period, but Berger does say his active shaping comes after that.

 

[geepers]

I like that "screwing into the turn" - it resonates a lot. Up here a similar term is/was used a lot in race coaching, "coiling". Same sort of idea. Applies to most/all turns, especially of course shorts and slalom.

Of course, not much is passive in this fast skiing! My objection along this entire thread was against the "dogma" of "it's active rotary" or "pivoting" as if that describes this skiing at all. For me, it doesn't... and if for 5% or 10% of the turn, the carving is not obvious but also no pivoting is obvious, I cannot call that "active rotary".

To give you an example, take this, since I already made it and you brought up screwing/coiling:

View attachment 152743

He has screwed himself into the right footer turn / coiled himself. He maintains that coiling through skis flat, in the middle frames. That is not easy and takes a lot of "coiling" or "coiled" effort. His feet are nothing but relaxed, in fact his feet are working hard to keep the skis from unwinding and pivoting as they change edges through flat, his feet are still activated to turn the other way, up the hill - that's how you keep the flat ski from rotating. This is the part where most skiers would let go and rotate or pivot. His feet are working hard to keep the skis from rotating into the turn even as the angles increase. This is 100% carving technique, the exact opposite of pivoting a flat ski.

At some point, you need to stop the coiling, in the last frame - obviously, the skis must turn the other way eventually. As you transition from strong coiling effort to carve "the other way", what happens? The obvious will happen: if the ski was not on high enough edge angles to stay in place, it may rotate. So, as he transitions from coiling / the feet from turning up the hill (keep the skis from unwinding) to carving the turn, the ski may redirect slightly, especially given that insane rythm. Duh. Is there an "active shaping phase" going on at the same time? Meh, not really, I see the tips engaged and tracking, not redirecting - although the tails may slip some, but is it the extension with the ski on edge that slips the tails or active "rotary"? The extension that happens during the same time is the right timing for a carved turn, so I don't see an active shaping there, via foot rotation. Is the foot rotating some? Of course - it has to stop resisting (turn uphill) and complete the turn. Is there enough time to passively follow the ski shape along? At that rythm? Nope.

But we cannot have that discussion when some see just "ah, he's pivoting". Or "that skiing, it's active rotary, you see". Or that transition is a steering transition. Go back and see the comments and it's either "it's active rotary" or "he pivoted the flat skis" when it is exactly the contrary, as these frames show.

Here, we're simply lacking the vocabulary to have that discussion... the dictionary and the models used are too coarse to be useful to discuss this skiing. There's tons of other skiing, including of Berger, that this may be applicable to, but not this.

p.s. His drills are great. I do a ton of pivot slips, almost daily. Do my turns look like pivots or would describing my turns as "pivoting" capture the wrong part of the drill?

p.s.2 Tech detail: if to the uncoiling effort, when he stops the feet from torquing up the hill and starts activating them into the turn, if at that point he'd add any kind of steering from extra active foot rotation, he'd blow way past the fall line and not engage the ski to get that turn shape. This is why this skiing does not result from "pivot into an edge set" but from "carve into a short turn", which is training it from the other end of the spectrum, although it obviously requires many skills.

It's not this skiing, which is more on the other side of the spectrum (in this case more heel push than foot rotation, still - too many mechanisms at play, i do see why it's tempting to just say "it's just rotary"):

View attachment 152747

It is closer to this:

View attachment 152748

...which is not "all active rotary", pivoted...

Anyways, maybe this gives you a better insight into how I see things. Cheers.

So what you are saying is that in the Speedy Short Turn vid (#41) Richie is doing something very different from what he states (and appears) to be doing in Legacy Shorts and in vids #21 to #25? And it also appears IMHO to be what he does in the few short turns on the steeps in the last two runs of fast tempo vid - the runs starting at 2:23 and 2:40 - before picking up the tempo as the pitch flattens.

Seems unlikely (MHO). Think it's more a matter of DIRT in the shaping phase. There's very little shaping in the fast tempo turns as the skis stay more in the fall line.

Guess we could discuss for several more pages. Or we could just try asking him.

 

[WadeHoliday]

quick look and read of this last page,
I agree with Razies' last statement,
"or was he working hard to keep it from pivoting and let a 3 degree slip?"
in my view, if anything he is resisting the unwinding to limit the redirection of the skis.

I also noticed what Geepers called out:
"And it also appears IMHO to be what he does in the few short turns on the steeps in the last two runs of fast tempo vid - the runs starting at 2:23 and 2:40"
in my look at this video clip, that was actually the only section I liked, and I love Richie Berger's skiing. He can use any blend or DIRT, as Geepers said, you ask for, but these short squiggles on the flatter terrain feel contrived, while the few steeper turns feel more appropriate to the terrain to me.

he has such amazingly quick accurate movements!
Thx for posting!
W

 

[geepers]

Richie adds a vid. Slower tempo, more deflection, more redirection, same pitch, same ski suit.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I felt like I had some pretty good Richie Berger turns today. I may be totally delusional though, hopefully I can get video soon and we can see if I am full of it or not.

 

[Noodler]

I use delusion as a coping mechanism. Facing your own reality 24/7 might just drive you crazy.

 

[Chris V.]

It's the greatest satisfaction some of us get any more.