School me on Skins

[Noodler]

Skin sizing question for the gurus...

I'm confused why the Pomoca skin finder suggests a 130mm wide skin for my skis when the widest portion of the ski that would actually have snow contact is 117mm (due to the tip rocker). What's the point of having the skin cover the ski base that's on the rocker upturn? Can I get away with a 120mm wide skin? I have noticed that most outlets don't even carry the 130mm wide options. It's only 100-120-140 as being available.

 

[James]

I presume it’s for breaking trail or in 3-d snow. The rocker part will still contact and compress. But I await the skinners answers.

Hey if you want to make you’re own, you can buy it by the meter. Then buy the fittings. They only have 140mm available now though. A busy season I guess.
$46.35/meter Montamix 140mm

Skins material by the meter | Montana Sport North America

MONTANA skins materials are available cut to length or by the meter.Reel Material available width: 30 mm / 35 mm / 40 mm / 50 mm / 59 mm / 62 mm / 70 mm / 80 mm / 90 mm / 100 mm / 120 mm / 130 mm / 140 mm / 160 mm.For bulk pricing and special orders please contact us.

www.montanasportna.net

 

[pais alto]

Skin sizing question for the gurus...

I'm confused why the Pomoca skin finder suggests a 130mm wide skin for my skis when the widest portion of the ski that would actually have snow contact is 117mm (due to the tip rocker). What's the point of having the skin cover the ski base that's on the rocker upturn? Can I get away with a 120mm wide skin? I have noticed that most outlets don't even carry the 130mm wide options. It's only 100-120-140 as being available.

I posted this way back on page 1 of this thread:

...When you’re skinning, the traction comes predominately from underfoot and the tail. 4 mm of bare base/edge on either side of the forward part will not affect your traction. In fact, you can get away with more bare base on the front part than that, and it saves a little weight. That’s why I buy skins sized for the tail measurement.

Short version, buy the skins closest to your tail measurement. This reflects on my skinning tip (somewhere here I have a post called “skinning primer” or something like that) that if you’re slipping, stand straight and weight the center and back of the ski. You’ll just slip worse if you try to weight the front.

Edit: found it.

General - Backcountry Instruction Northeast US

I have some backcountry experience and have skins and AT bindings. I want to get my SO Robin into it but would prefer to find an introductory class that includes gear rental. I know EMS has classes in the White Mountains and I think AMC may have some as well. Does anyone here have any...

www.skitalk.com

 

[James]

I posted this way back on page 1 of this thread:

Short version, buy the skins closest to your tail measurement. This reflects on my skinning tip (somewhere here I have a post called “skinning primer” or something like that) that if you’re slipping, stand straight and weight the center and back of the ski. You’ll just slip worse if you try to weight the front.

Edit: found it.

https://www.SkiTalk.com/threads/backcountry-instruction-northeast-us.5360/#post-124764

So you use the skins straight cut, tail width?
Edit- no, clearly that’s not straight width, the narrow part would be.
Ever do that, and use 1 straight cut skin on different skis?

 

[jmeb]

So you use the skins straight cut, tail width?

Tail width wouldn't work because it would be too wide at the waist of the ski. But I could probably use straight cut at waist width minus 6mm without much if any loss in performance. And weight savings.

But it's easiest to cut skins to shape. Buy your tail width "size" (per @pais alto), put them on, and trim using one of the decent offset (typically 3-4mm) tolls from G3, Pomoca or Contour. Call it good.

Oh, and my favorite skin is the Contour Hybrid -- aka the BCA Hybrid. Great grip/glide/packability offsets, easy glue, easy to clean. Rocks. For full on durability and reliability, Black Diamond is hard to beat. But Pomoca is making great stuff too.

 

[ScottB]

I would size by tail width as pais states. You can also size by waist width too. You can cut them narrower, but not wider, which is why shops take the tip width approach. Plus they cost more if wider, more revenue. Tip width sizing is called wall to wall and makes sense for sub 88 mm skis. Wider skis don't need as wide a skin. Less grippy skins need more width and visa versa. You can also tailor the tip and tail shape as you see fit. The simplest approach is wall to wall which is what skimo did for me on my initial purchase. I have since tailored my skins and improved the glide.

 

[pais alto]

So you use the skins straight cut, tail width?
Edit- no, clearly that’s not straight width, the narrow part would be.

You figured it out.

Ever do that, and use 1 straight cut skin on different skis?

Not since I went over 60 mm waisted skis. I suppose you could, but I dedicate each pair of skins to a specific ski.

 

[pais alto]

You can cut them narrower, but not wider,

“Jeez, I cut them twice, but they’re still too narrow!”

 

[Noodler]

I would size by tail width as pais states. You can also size by waist width too. You can cut them narrower, but not wider, which is why shops take the tip width approach. Plus they cost more if wider, more revenue. Tip width sizing is called wall to wall and makes sense for sub 88 mm skis. Wider skis don't need as wide a skin. Less grippy skins need more width and visa versa. You can also tailor the tip and tail shape as you see fit. The simplest approach is wall to wall which is what skimo did for me on my initial purchase. I have since tailored my skins and improved the glide.

So my tail width is 130mm (140-108-130 sidecut). Does that mean I must go with the 140mm skins and cut to shape? Would a 120mm skin provide enough surface area on a bigger ski like this? What should I go with?

 

[Noodler]

So I have found sources for the following skin in the sizes I need (although still determining correct width):

• Pomoca Climb 2.0 (recommended by Pomoca skin finder, great for beginners, cheapest)
• Pomoca Climb Pro S-Glide (better glide than Climb 2.0, lighter and more packable)
• Pomoca Free Pro 2.0 (less durable, but best glide and lightest)

I'm leaning toward just going with the lowest cost option that is good for beginners. The only thought that gives me pause is that the skins will probably have plenty of grip due to the size I need, so I could lean toward a skin with better glide.

 

[pais alto]

So my tail width is 130mm (140-108-130 sidecut). Does that mean I must go with the 140mm skins and cut to shape? Would a 120mm skin provide enough surface area on a bigger ski like this? What should I go with?

A 120 mm skin will leave 5 mm of ski on each side of a 130 tail. Thats minuscule, a half-centimeter. I recommend you go with the 120s.

So I have found sources for the following skins:

• Pomoca Climb 2.0 (recommended by Pomoca skin finder, great for beginners, cheapest)
• Pomoca Climb Pro S-Glide (better glide than Climb 2.0, lighter and more packable)
• Pomoca Free Pro 2.0 (less durable, but best glide and lightest)

I'm leaning toward just going with the lowest cost option that is good for beginners. The only thought that gives me pause is that the skins will probably have plenty of grip due to the size I need, so I could lean toward a skin with better glide.

I’d say go with the lowest cost, unless you’re skinning over a lot of flat or rolling terrain which is where you’d want glide. You’ll save money...and build character. But seriously, it takes a certain amount of experience to notice and appreciate the slightly better glide of more expensive skins.

 

[Ken_R]

A 120 mm skin will leave 5 mm of ski on each side of a 130 tail. Thats minuscule, a half-centimeter. I recommend you go with the 120s.


I’d say go with the lowest cost, unless you’re skinning over a lot of flat or rolling terrain which is where you’d want glide. You’ll save money...and build character. But seriously, it takes a certain amount of experience to notice and appreciate the slightly better glide of more expensive skins.

Yeah, I was gonna say that even 100mm skins would work well. I used 100mm wide skins on 112mm skis without issues.

Regarding skins I would go for a common nylon/mohair mix skin like BD's. No need to get something exotic. As a beginner its better to have more grip than trying to get ultimate glide. It takes a while to figure out proper climbing technique and uphill turns.

Also, most beginner ATers will quickly find out that most of the grip will come from a small part of the entire skin, mostly underfoot.

 

[Noodler]

Yeah, I was gonna say that even 100mm skins would work well. I used 100mm wide skins on 112mm skis without issues.

Regarding skins I would go for a common nylon/mohair mix skin like BD's. No need to get something exotic. As a beginner its better to have more grip than trying to get ultimate glide. It takes a while to figure out proper climbing technique and uphill turns.

Also, most beginner ATers will quickly find out that most of the grip will come from a small part of the entire skin, mostly underfoot.

View attachment 122933

So when you size a skin for application like this, how do you select the length? Do the manufacturers already take into account the ski length or are folks ordering shorter skins? If a skin states that it goes up to 180cm and the ski is 182cm, are you screwed?

 

[Ken_R]

So when you size a skin for application like this, how do you select the length? Do the manufacturers already take into account the ski length or are folks ordering shorter skins? If a skin states that it goes up to 180cm and the ski is 182cm, are you screwed?

Yes, you might be screwed. You will be at best at the very end of the rear strap. Ideally you want to be in the middle of the range. BD skins are available in these lengths for example:

• Available in fixed-lengths: 157-168cm, 163-174cm, 169-180cm, 175-186cm, 181-192cm

If you have a 185cm long ski I would get the 181-192cm size but the 175-186cm might be usable but its a gamble since actual ski length doesnt always match ski specs perfectly.

 

[Slim]

@Noodler
What @Ken_R says. Length is length, can’t mess with that.

So I would do both a straight tape pull measurement, and one over the bottom, and compare those two numbers to the sizes of the skins.

If that puts you in teo different sizes of skin, go longer. If worse comes to worse, you can always cut of the tail strap kit put a new one on. ($20)

 

[Slim]

So I have found sources for the following skin in the sizes I need (although still determining correct width):

• Pomoca Climb 2.0 (recommended by Pomoca skin finder, great for beginners, cheapest)
• Pomoca Climb Pro S-Glide (better glide than Climb 2.0, lighter and more packable)
• Pomoca Free Pro 2.0 (less durable, but best glide and lightest)

I'm leaning toward just going with the lowest cost option that is good for beginners. The only thought that gives me pause is that the skins will probably have plenty of grip due to the size I need, so I could lean toward a skin with better glide.

When you say lowest cost, how big is the absolute difference? ;-)

I disagree with @pais alto , everyone notices better glide. It is true that some beginners migh not have good technique, and want grippier skins.
I am a beginner AT skier though, and my Pomoca mohair/nylon mix skins were never a problem for me, so I don’t see a need for super grippy skins for beginners.


Thinner, more Packable skins are a double edged sword:

For big, challenging tours, it is super nice to have something lightweight and compact. It saves weight on you feet on the climbs (just like lightweight boots), but at the same time, it saves weight on your torso during the descent, so a win win.
(If) You might want to put your skins in your pack or chest pockets, thinner, more packable skins are much easier to pack.

But, thinner, more flexible material in the skins is also more likely to peel away from the ski, especially on wide skins, and on rockered skis (where there is little weight pressing the skin onto the ski).

So for short tours, with minimal gear, there might be something to say for a stiffer skin.

 

[James]

So what’s the downside of 100% Mohair?

Seems to me, who knows nothing, that having enough grip to do the job is important, after that it’s just more work.
Contour Skins, made by Koch Alpin, catalog. Don’t see bulk skin material listed.

https://indd.adobe.com/view/100e9b8f-9959-415f-9564-806dd1e2a9e3

Koch alpin : Brands

www.kochalpin.at

Looks like Camp-Usa of Golden, CO is the distributor.

Contour

Visit the post for more.

www.camp-usa.com

Maybe they have the slippers-

 

[pais alto]

Other problems with thinner backing material include trying to fold them up in the wind. If you ever experience it, you’ll know what that is. That, and they’re more vulnerable to tearing on rocks and other subsurface things. That last may not be an issue for you, again it depends on where and how you tour, but I've run into it on wilder tours.

And again, the benefits of better glide aren’t that apparent if you’re touring uphill most all the time. For instance, if you’re catching laps at your local ski area, you probably aren’t on flats or rolling terrain very often. But if you have a longer approach over flat or rolling terrain, and your skinning technique is good on any steeper terrain, then you’ll probably appreciate the better gliding skins. But I still think it’s a marginal advantage, maybe because I tend to take steeper tracks.

That said, I use mix mohair-nylon skins most of the time because they’re lighter and fold up more compactly. But I used full nylon skins for many years (still do on some skis) and appreciate the greater traction on steep tracks and resistance to water absorption that they provide, especially in the spring. But hey, ymmv, I’m just trying to share what has worked for me over the years - I’ve been using skins since the late 80s.

And one last thing, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I use Nikwax Ski Skin Proof on skins instead of wax because it’s more effective and much easier to apply. But i carry a bar of skin wax, mostly for partners that are getting caked up skins.

Edit: the disadvantage of mohair skins is they tend to absorb more water, becoming either heavy or iced up. Also more fragile and harder to deal with on windy spots. Less traction, too. And maybe $$$.

 

[Slim]

Yes, good point about the thin skins being harder in the wind, @pais alto ,haha, indeed I am sure everyone has experienced that at some point in time. I had that in mind for ‘disadvantages of flexible skins’ , but forgot about it by the time I wrote that part. ;-)

@James , grip is not a binary thing. So in situations at the limit of grip, a grippier skin will be easier to use, you won’t have to be as balanced on your traction.
It also depends on how steep you (need to) go. Even if you use a low angle skin track, if you have switchbacks, or have to go around a tree or rock, you might have short steeper sections (perhaps only for one step) where a grippier skin keeps you from slipping out and falling.

And then we also have to remember that the differences in grip and glide are dependent on snow conditions. The fastest, or grippiest skin in one snow type, might not be so in another.

So, in the end for most of us, something in the middle of the spectrums is probably the best (first) choice.
Something balancing grip and glide, with moderate thickness of backing and hardware.

If it’s only for midwinter powder on big skis, maybe lightweight, full mohair becomes more interesting. Grip won’t be an issue, big skis mean big packed size. Few rocks to worry about, below treeline means wind is less of an issue when ripping skins.

If it’s only for late season ski mountaineering, on short, narrow skis, maybe full nylon with stiff backing is best: more exposed rock or branches, icy snow and steep terrain, wet snow, exposed locations for ripping or applying skins. And the smaller skins means even a thicker backing won’t be terribly large to carry.

 

[Ken_R]

In Colorado for places like Jones Pass and Butler Gulch where the skin in to the best terrain is at least 1-2 miles on gentle terrain the extra glide is welcome. For peak bagging even more so since winter closures are miles from the summer trailheads in most cases so you will be skinning on a snowpacked road quite a bit. In the Berthoud Pass zone not so much but still helps. In the alpine around here the extra grip is helpful since the snow surface will most likely be very very firm due to wind. Close to the ridges skin tracks can get very very steep and somewhat icy in the spring and if your are exploring around steeper areas its best to have the extra grip. It actually saves energy since nothing saps energy like slipping back a bit every other step.

I think @pais alto nailed it in his post. You can really tear up very thin and light skins easily around here, specially this season.