Separation/angulation

Bruno Schull

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Posts
122
Hey folks,

Separation and angulation: What do those terms mean?

My totally amateur understanding: Separation generally describes the upper and lower body working independently, or the upper body remaining more stable facing down the fall line, with the lower body moving and turning beneath. Angulation is sort of a specific case of separation, in the middle of a turn, with your upper body vertical (or more vertical) and the lower body leaned over at an angle to the snow.

Whatever the definitions, I think they are both things I need to work on.

All best,

Bruno
 

Tim Hodgson

PSIA Level II Alpine
Instructor
Joined
Aug 20, 2016
Posts
529
Location
Kirkwood, California
Bruno, I just posted in your other thread. You are a thinker. I suggest that you subscribe to Tom Gellie's bigpictureskiing.com

You are the type of skier who will get allot from Tom's detailed discussion and videos.

Period.

And then you can post up your comments and questions here:


And we can discuss what you got from them with you!

Binge watch for a month and cancel if you want. You are just dating his videos, not marrying them. . .
 

razie

Sir Shiftsalot
Skier
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Posts
1,228
Location
Ontario
Yeah separation usually means upper and lower working independently and angulation is a direct result of that concept.

Inclination is the exact opposite - although most people use it as "inclination of COM" i.e. the average degree of inclination of the COM inside the turn, whether you angulated or not. So I see it as unrelated to the other two.

I like to use separation as a more fundamental concepts of separating body parts, for instance flexing to allow the feet to tip in/out without being connected to the hips is a form of separation etc.
 
Thread Starter
TS
B

Bruno Schull

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Posts
122
Thanks for the links--I'll definitely check out the Tom Gellies resources.

And now I have another word to think about: inclination :)

All best,

Bruno
 

Henry

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Sep 7, 2019
Posts
406
Location
Traveling in the great Northwest
Bruno, let's see the best demonstrate for us:
1613938825000.png


Marcel Hirscher, none better. His skis are pointed to his left. His hips & chest are pointed a bit to his right. That is separation, also known as counter. He is flexed at the waist. That is angulation. Angulation is difficult without counter.

1613938940519.png


Inclination. It looks like Hirscher is regaining balance after a skid. Note the snow flying off his skis. This isn't planned but sometimes necessary. Counter & angulation are better. Counter & angulation result in greater ski angles against the snow and better ski grip.
 

Fuller

Semi Local
Skier
Joined
Feb 18, 2016
Posts
847
Location
Whitefish or Florida
Hey folks,

Separation and angulation: What do those terms mean?

My totally amateur understanding: Separation generally describes the upper and lower body working independently, or the upper body remaining more stable facing down the fall line, with the lower body moving and turning beneath. Angulation is sort of a specific case of separation, in the middle of a turn, with your upper body vertical (or more vertical) and the lower body leaned over at an angle to the snow.

Whatever the definitions, I think they are both things I need to work on.

All best,

Bruno
You are 100 percent correct, that's what you , me and most other skiers need to work on. It's easy for analytical people to read, absorb and understand the concepts but some of us have a lot of trouble actually doing it. I'm just beginning to see how it works in my own skiing - it's right there on some days and other days I'm back to intermediate status. But once you get the taste of how effective it can be for everyday skiing you keep coming back for more. So make it a goal, it's totally worth the effort.
 

Chris V.

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Mar 25, 2016
Posts
540
Location
Truckee
So relieved no chickens were harmed in the making of those vids. Had a different mental image of what Separation would reveal. :geek:
I had the same reaction. "Chicken separation?" Ouch. I've done that.

The video shows what a natural, intuitive response separation is. If only human skiers could be that relaxed and not fight the mountain.
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
Instructor
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,907
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass

razie

Sir Shiftsalot
Skier
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Posts
1,228
Location
Ontario
Not necessarily--could very easily be inclination before angulation. Especially given the arm position. I'd bet the next move is to bring that outside arm down, create angulation, step on the outside ski, get a ton of deflection across the hill, and move into the next turn.
not disagreeing - it's more about the confusion about using the term inclination - the COM is inclinated even when you're angulated... that's why i put the terminology link there.
 
Top