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Sepp For The Win!

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It's hard to believe that the suits at Jumbo Visma don't see the difference between finishing 1,2,3 with everybody smiling and Sepp Kuss on the top step of the podium vs finishing 1,2,3 and the whole team hating each other and a public relations nightmare. I've been a JV fan but I'm rethinking that allegiance.
 

scott43

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I suppose it is the Vuelta at the end of the day. It would affect salaries. It's all about the money ain't a damn thing funny..
 

Rudi Riet

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Not sure who here watched all of the post-stage interviews, both in the global pool and on Eurosport/GCN. The basic gist:

1. Vingagaard is watching out for Kuss and would like to see him win. I'm thinking Vingo would've sprinted past Roglič had he not been looking out for Sepp.

2. The Team Jumbo Visma DS has basically abdicated his role to avoid getting between the egos of Roglič and Vingegaard. He said as much when pressed, that he's left it up to the guys to solve on the road. To me that is dereliction of duty, but hey: I'm not the team owner so what do I know?

3. Roglič is in it wholly and solely for himself, to win. I can see why this is the case, as he was supposed to be the sole protected GC guy at La Vuelta. Then Vingo is added and is actually stronger, and Sepp goes into a break and into red the day after his stage win. His gaslighting (telling Sepp to "keep [his] dreams alive" is just disingenuous stuff he says to the press with a wry, knowing smile. He's pissed that he isn't the sole GC focus.

4. Sepp is not an alpha dog, especially on TJV. He has always played a supporting role in the big races, always been there to help. He's affable, likeable, and doesn't want to ruffle feathers. He's not really in it to win, at least not from what he's showing and saying in his interviews. Dan Lloyd said this quite clearly in the post-race edition of The Breakaway.

So it's an excess of spoils for TJV and while they claim in public that "it's all going to plan" the reality is that the optics to the viewing public and fans are truly awful. That's a shame.

Expect some more movement from TJV to other teams in the off-season. Lidl-Trek has already signed some of the TJV domestiques and the rumor is that they are angling for Roglič. This makes some sense, as Lidl-Trek's main Grand Tour GC guy, Bauke Mollema, is past his prime and there isn't a clear heir apparent. There are a solid number of supporting role riders already there, boosted by the new recruits coming over from TJV and other teams.

I can't see Sepp leaving TJV given they've done a lot of good by him, present situation notwithstanding. There certainly are some teams that could use his talents, from Lidl-Trek (provided they don't land Roglič) to Bahrain-Victorious (Landa is leaving at the end of this season) to EF-EasyPost (Carapaz is a washed-up prima donna, Uran is wrapping up his career, and Sepp would likely gel well with Powless and Carthy). But he likes TJV, from all I can see - and that kind of comfort matters.

And Vingagaard isn't going anywhere as he's TJV's top value athlete right now in terms of Grand Tours.

Just my $0.02 - YMMV.
 

Tony Storaro

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For now on, I think Jumbo has set a precedent, all domestiques, and other riders who feel they can win the stage or race, you have a green light to look after yourself and a the race team "leader". Wout van Aert, Sepp, you're free to fly next year with Jumbo

Very true. TJV is pissing on the unwritten rules of the etiquette of what is supposed to be a gentlemen’s sport
 

Tony Storaro

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Not sure who here watched all of the post-stage interviews, both in the global pool and on Eurosport/GCN. The basic gist:

1. Vingagaard is watching out for Kuss and would like to see him win. I'm thinking Vingo would've sprinted past Roglič had he not been looking out for Sepp.

2. The Team Jumbo Visma DS has basically abdicated his role to avoid getting between the egos of Roglič and Vingegaard. He said as much when pressed, that he's left it up to the guys to solve on the road. To me that is dereliction of duty, but hey: I'm not the team owner so what do I know?

3. Roglič is in it wholly and solely for himself, to win. I can see why this is the case, as he was supposed to be the sole protected GC guy at La Vuelta. Then Vingo is added and is actually stronger, and Sepp goes into a break and into red the day after his stage win. His gaslighting (telling Sepp to "keep [his] dreams alive" is just disingenuous stuff he says to the press with a wry, knowing smile. He's pissed that he isn't the sole GC focus.

4. Sepp is not an alpha dog, especially on TJV. He has always played a supporting role in the big races, always been there to help. He's affable, likeable, and doesn't want to ruffle feathers. He's not really in it to win, at least not from what he's showing and saying in his interviews. Dan Lloyd said this quite clearly in the post-race edition of The Breakaway.

So it's an excess of spoils for TJV and while they claim in public that "it's all going to plan" the reality is that the optics to the viewing public and fans are truly awful. That's a shame.

Expect some more movement from TJV to other teams in the off-season. Lidl-Trek has already signed some of the TJV domestiques and the rumor is that they are angling for Roglič. This makes some sense, as Lidl-Trek's main Grand Tour GC guy, Bauke Mollema, is past his prime and there isn't a clear heir apparent. There are a solid number of supporting role riders already there, boosted by the new recruits coming over from TJV and other teams.

I can't see Sepp leaving TJV given they've done a lot of good by him, present situation notwithstanding. There certainly are some teams that could use his talents, from Lidl-Trek (provided they don't land Roglič) to Bahrain-Victorious (Landa is leaving at the end of this season) to EF-EasyPost (Carapaz is a washed-up prima donna, Uran is wrapping up his career, and Sepp would likely gel well with Powless and Carthy). But he likes TJV, from all I can see - and that kind of comfort matters.

And Vingagaard isn't going anywhere as he's TJV's top value athlete right now in terms of Grand Tours.

Just my $0.02 - YMMV.

Also remember that Jumbo is leaving the sport and the team needs a new big sponsor and what they are doing now is not very helpful to their cause.
Whatever the plan is, this is looking terrible.
 

fatbob

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Very true. TJV is pissing on the unwritten rules of the etiquette of what is supposed to be a gentlemen’s sport
Yeah one which has systematically doped for decades and riding opponents into the barriers is a regular event. The real reason for etiquette is not manners but fear of the very direct consequence of retribution by peers.
 

Tony Storaro

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Yeah one which has systematically doped for decades and riding opponents into the barriers is a regular event. The real reason for etiquette is not manners but fear of the very direct consequence of retribution by peers.

Nah it isnt a regular event, Groenewegen was one off and nothing like that happened ever since…I think…
 

Rudi Riet

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Nah it isnt a regular event, Groenewegen was one off and nothing like that happened ever since…I think…

Not one-off at all. Look at the U.S. Crits series where Justin Williams (current national crit champion and L39ION of L.A. star rider) was just handed a four month suspension by USA Cycling for running a competitor into the barriers at the Littleton Criterium. And this isn't Williams' first suspension for such behavior.

 

Tony Storaro

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Not one-off at all. Look at the U.S. Crits series where Justin Williams (current national crit champion and L39ION of L.A. star rider) was just handed a four month suspension by USA Cycling for running a competitor into the barriers at the Littleton Criterium. And this isn't Williams' first suspension for such behavior.


Ah, could be, I was unaware such thing as US Crits even existed :roflmao: I was talking the big tours here
 

Tony Storaro

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So basically like Movistar except with actual talent.

Talking of Carapaz and unexpected domestique wins - when are we getting the Jumbo Visma docco, again?

It is worse man, Movistar shafted a former teammate, not an actual :ogbiggrin:

A JV Netflix series will have more backstabbing, treachery and dirt in it than Game of Thrones. A total hit!
 

Rudi Riet

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Well seems like they rode for Kuss today & Remco got to prove his point without much challenge so everyone shoudl be happy.

Per the talk on The Breakaway the other DS for TJV said they're 100 percent behind Sepp now - and the way they rode today backs that up completely.

That said: the little interview they had with Primož was, shall we say, awkward. He said that he "has his thoughts" about the team dynamic, a not-so-veiled remark that he disagrees with the "all for Sepp" approach. Oh well - that's just how it is, right? (And yes, I'm sorta stealing one of Primož' own turns of phrase there.)
 

Tony Storaro

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Well seems like they rode for Kuss today & Remco got to prove his point without much challenge so everyone shoudl be happy.

What they did today was damage control. They should have ridden like that yesterday. Not good enough.
 

Tony Storaro

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Per the talk on The Breakaway the other DS for TJV said they're 100 percent behind Sepp now - and the way they rode today backs that up completely.

That said: the little interview they had with Primož was, shall we say, awkward. He said that he "has his thoughts" about the team dynamic, a not-so-veiled remark that he disagrees with the "all for Sepp" approach. Oh well - that's just how it is, right? (And yes, I'm sorta stealing one of Primož' own turns of phrase there.)

Primoz must have been unhappy from the get go when they surprisingly brought JV to the Vuelta. He however must realize that helping Sepp to win probably the only GT in his life will make him much more of a legend than just winning another Vuelta himself and as his racing career is drawing to an end his image of not only great cyclist but also BIG MAN and great leader is more important than ever.
 

fatbob

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What they did today was damage control. They should have ridden like that yesterday. Not good enough.
Who should have? JV had to ride on Roglic to protect himself if Roglic was going rogue and he still had the sense not to attempt to bag the bonus seconds or cause further friction by denying Roglic the stage win. It is of course possible that yesterday was carefully calibrated to put JV within sneezing distance to prevent dramas if Kuss did blow up on today's arguably Queen stage. JV basically gave the game away by leaking a few seconds deliberately at the finish today that he in no way needed to.

PR fix or always the strategy will depend on your own biases. I can well believe Roglic is miffed about being 3rd wheel but JV still has a long career ahead and I don't think he's trying to make enemies.
 

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JV could be one of the few people to ever do the Tour/Vuelta double.

Roglic could tie the most Vuelta titles ever.

Kuss could have his first GT win after years of being the best domestique in the world -- helping secure a half dozen GTs for Rolga and JV.

Jumbo could be the first team to ever sweep the GTs and do it with three different riders. Including a podium sweep at the last.

There's not really a bad outcome here -- but I have to say the Kuss win and Jumbo sweep with different riders will be the most remembered long term from my POV. That's just dominant on a level we haven't seen before as a team.
 

Tony Storaro

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JV could be one of the few people to ever do the Tour/Vuelta double.

Roglic could tie the most Vuelta titles ever.

Kuss could have his first GT win after years of being the best domestique in the world -- helping secure a half dozen GTs for Rolga and JV.

Jumbo could be the first team to ever sweep the GTs and do it with three different riders. Including a podium sweep at the last.

There's not really a bad outcome here -- but I have to say the Kuss win and Jumbo sweep with different riders will be the most remembered long term from my POV. That's just dominant on a level we haven't seen before as a team.

JV will have many more chances to win a double. All it takes is to win the Tour (which I hope won´t be next year or the year after….or ever) and then just turn up at a GT in which The Pog doesnt race.
Roglic will have his chance again at the Vuelta or Giro next year.

But Sepp? He might never ever has a chance to win a GT.

And I think this Vuelta will be remembered first and foremost with how absurdly inadequate TJV management looked. No matter what was the plan they made a total mess
 

jmeb

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No one remembers the management. They remember the outcomes of the stages and the tour. Hell...even watching this race daily I don't really care about "inadequate TJV management".

What will be remembered is the time a team swept the podium, and won all three GTs. And *maybe* how impressive Remco looked after his blow up --- take 3 (maybe 4?) stages and wearing perhaps the most jerseys ever in a GT?
 

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