Shiffrin free skiing

[James]

Mikaela, as exceptional as she is, is apparently not a “natural” athlete. I think she even says it herself.
It is different though when you’ve spent 20 years focused training. What 11 years full time, much of it at the highest level.
She appears to be motivated by getting better. So, if she wanted to get better at moguls it would happen.
I don’t think she ascribes to the theory of ski everything- like moguls, off piste, powder, crap snow. But I don’t know.

Interesting article from 2014-

Mikaela Shiffrin’s Swift, if Unplanned, Ascent to World Champion (Published 2014)

Shiffrin, an 18-year-old American who has dominated the World Cup slalom and is an Olympic favorite, was raised with a focus on process, not results.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Jamt]

In any case I'm not sure how that wording would allow a tighter radius towards the center of the skis. That would break monotone.

Depends on what definition of monotone you use. In mathematics monotonic simply means constantly increasing or decreasing.

My point was simply that when I work as a FIS TD I need some simple metrics to take.

 

[Uncle-A]

Mikaela, as exceptional as she is, is apparently not a “natural” athlete. I think she even says it herself.
It is different though when you’ve spent 20 years focused training. What 11 years full time, much of it at the highest level.
She appears to be motivated by getting better. So, if she wanted to get better at moguls it would happen.
I don’t think she ascribes to the theory of ski everything- like moguls, off piste, powder, crap snow. But I don’t know.

Interesting article from 2014-

Mikaela Shiffrin’s Swift, if Unplanned, Ascent to World Champion (Published 2014)

Shiffrin, an 18-year-old American who has dominated the World Cup slalom and is an Olympic favorite, was raised with a focus on process, not results.

www.nytimes.com

Thanks for sharing this article, I have not seen it before. It is a good read and gives insight into the success MS has achieved.

 

[tball]

I still think we need some video of MS skiing bumps to make sure she's good. I looked and can't find any.

“It's not that you can't ski bumps. You can't ski. Bumps prove it.”

 

[David Chaus]

If for some strange reason she can’t ski bumps already, I’m sure she would figure it out in about an hour. Or less.

 

[TheApprentice]

I still think we need some video of MS skiing bumps to make sure she's good

I'm willing to bet good money that she can ski bumps better than anyone on this forum can ever even dream of.

 

[razie]

It have me a good understanding of flex to release techniques. Worked on it since.

Now that's a rabbit hole, if anyone was looking for one .

That's not true off-piste. There are many high-level off-piste skiers who have little or no coaching.

...

“It's not that you can't ski bumps. You can't ski. Bumps prove it.”

@tball don't confuse VW sized soft bumps on your own terms to landing a double black boilerplate at 130kmh or the timed random iced up tech course where you jump from two-foot rut to the next two-foot rut, on random grip, while turning where that grinning coach dropped the gates and trying to beat the other 200 of you, so you get a better starting number next run... but these are the risk-calculating bunch, they won't jump without a parachute off the next peak just to prove something they don't care about.... but, as the commercial goes, when they do, it's a thing of beauty!!! Applying that skillset to soft bumps, you find that challenging? I can promise you that if tried the other way around, self-taught off-piste champion dropped on even a GS iced up run, I can almost guarantee that a trip to the hospital is at the end of the first run

No, there are not many great non-trained off-piste skiers if you ask me. It's a matter of what your yardstick is and understanding survivorship bias... The example I have in mind isn't what you may have - but that assertion, it's like saying an F1 driver can't drift an SUV in a mild offroad setting to a decent level!

Take your average necessarily highly trained decent points FIS racer and he/she will most likely smoke most what you'd otherwise call "self taught off piste pros", with recognizably better skiing skills, should they care to. Look no further than M.Caston, if you must have an example and show me *anyone* on this planet that makes bumps look better... the best, mind-blowing bump skiers I know were both co-race coaches, former FIS and current masters racers, all super trained in on-piste technical skiing and when I say mind-blowing I think double turning on any peak, not sticking to some "line".

Like the later posts brought up, these are the "crazy kids" and athletes that turned to ski racing instead of jumping off a cliff and went through rigorous technical training and that gets you god-likeness if that's not too strong... they do grow up and live on the same mountains as you and me, but they're nothing like you or me


Yes, sure, some kids grow up in bumps and can smoke them - can they show that level of performance elsewhere, like carve something, hip to snow on-piste or anything else? Why this uni-dimensionality is interesting?

Here's Svindal explaining he just had to adjust a bit the approach, to not arc as much. Keyword: adjust a bit. Now show me a self-taught off-roader that can adjust a bit and ski boilerplate properly, bending a ski at speed. That's something we'll want on video


And on that, @Sanity - these limited notions of arc-to-arc versus "multiple skill sets" are hilarious, to say the least, especially since I come from the racing side, where mindlessly arc-ing everything gets you into the fence at 100kmh. But it would take a deep understanding of the difference between drifting a V8 rear-wheel drive monster truck on mud (i.e. straight-up manhandlingly pivoting a light ski) versus drifting an F1 car at 200 kmh on grippy asphalt, i.e. drifting hip to snow on ice, to meaningfully discuss the difference. Can you show either of those or just one? You're confusing the outcome (drift or arc) with the inputs and control and thus missing the entirety of the varied world of ski technique, while at the same time claiming "multiple skills"?

If you think me wrong, just go take a video of you doing the "other" thing, whatever your "main" thing is. If you're into "multiple skill sets" well, just show us your mastery of any of them. I have plenty of video of myself pivoting hop and over. It's not a challenge, by any stretch of the imagination. Now... drifting the ski when turning mach-shnell hip to snow, that's where the fun is. Or playing off-piste. Do you have video of either?

No... just skiing won't meaningfully improve anyone. To be fair, some are naturally athletic and video learners so I'm sure they can copy well and I am sure some here think they know better, but there's a ton of research and experience out there, it takes much more to really improve at the level worth talking about, than just repeating the task. Any sport, anywhere. Self-taught that "make it" to a certain level are the exceptions that prove the rule, very few as they are.

@tball checkout Warren Miller's "off the grid", the Kashmir segment and see if you can tell who's the former racer and who's the would be the self-taught offroad "pros"... then we can form a new yardstick and maybe change the lens

 

[Sanity]

Now that's a rabbit hole, if anyone was looking for one .



@tball don't confuse VW sized soft bumps on your own terms to landing a double black boilerplate at 130kmh or the timed random iced up tech course where you jump from two-foot rut to the next two-foot rut, on random grip, while turning where that grinning coach dropped the gates and trying to beat the other 200 of you, so you get a better starting number next run... but these are the risk-calculating bunch, they won't jump without a parachute off the next peak just to prove something they don't care about.... but, as the commercial goes, when they do, it's a thing of beauty!!! Applying that skillset to soft bumps, you find that challenging? I can promise you that if tried the other way around, self-taught off-piste champion dropped on even a GS iced up run, I can almost guarantee that a trip to the hospital is at the end of the first run

No, there are not many great non-trained off-piste skiers if you ask me and specifically, not trained on-piste... It's a matter of what your yardstick is and understanding survivorship bias... The example I have in mind isn't what you may have - but that assertion, it's like saying an F1 driver can't drift an SUV in a mild offroad setting to a decent level!

Take your average necessarily highly trained decent points FIS racer and he/she will most likely smoke most what you'd otherwise call "self taught off piste pros", with recognizably better skiing skills, should they care to. Look no further than M.Caston, if you must have an example and show me *anyone* on this planet that makes bumps look better... the best, mind-blowing bump skiers I know were both co-race coaches, former FIS and current masters racers, all super trained in on-piste technical skiing and when I say mind-blowing I think double turning on any peak, not sticking to some "line".

Like the later posts brought up, these are the "crazy kids" and athletes that turned to ski racing instead of jumping off a cliff and went through rigorous technical training and that gets you god-likeness if that's not too strong... they do grow up and live on the same mountains as you and me, but they're nothing like you or me


Yes, sure, some kids grow up in bumps and can smoke them - can they show that level of performance elsewhere, like carve something, hip to snow on-piste or anything else? Why this uni-dimensionality is interesting?

Here's Svindal explaining he just had to adjust a bit the approach, to not arc as much. Keyword: adjust a bit. Now show me a self-taught off-roader that can adjust a bit and ski boilerplate properly, turning at speed. That's something we'll want on video


And on that, @Sanity - these limited notions of arc-to-arc versus "multiple skill sets" are hilarious, to say the least, especially since I come from the racing side, where mindlessly arc-ing everything gets you into the fence at 100kmh. But it would take a deep understanding of the difference between drifting a V8 rear-wheel drive monster truck on mud (i.e. straight-up manhandlingly pivoting a light ski) versus drifting an F1 car at 200 kmh on grippy asphalt, i.e. drifting hip to snow on ice, to meaningfully discuss the difference. Can you show either of those or just one? You're confusing the outcome (drift or arc) with the inputs and control and thus missing the entirety of the varied world of ski technique, while at the same time claiming "multiple skills"?

If you think me wrong, just go take a video of you doing the "other" thing, whatever your "main" thing is. If you're into "multiple skill sets" well, just show us your mastery of any of them. I have plenty of video of myself pivoting hop and over. It's not a challenge, by any stretch of the imagination. Now... drifting the ski when turning mach-shnell hip to snow, that's where the fun is. Or playing off-piste. Do you have video of either?

No... just skiing won't meaningfully improve anyone. To be fair, some are naturally athletic and video learners so I'm sure they can copy well and I am sure some here think they know better, but there's a ton of research and experience out there, it takes much more to really improve at the level worth talking about, than just repeating the task. Any sport, anywhere. Self-taught that "make it" to a certain level are the exceptions that prove the rule, very few as they are.

@tball checkout Warren Miller's "off the grid", the Kashmir segment and see if you can tell who's the former racer and who's the would be the self-taught offroad "pros"... then we can form a new yardstick and maybe change the lens

Let's say that I create a website where I'm the skiing guru with tons of advice. Then, I claim that if you can ski the line in moguls according to my style, you'll have the necessary skills to be a great skier in any venue. Next, I put up a video of myself skiing in a local GS race with amateurs, and I come in dead last. Finally, when people disagree with me, I argue with them on the ski forum with huge long posts trumpeting my greatness. That's what's happening here.......... except in reverse.........

 

[tball]

Look no further than M.Caston, if you must have an example and show me *anyone* on this planet that makes bumps look better...

Oh, boy. Just like I don't have an eye for great groomer skiing, you don't have an eye for great bump skiing. Not the worlds we come from, respectively.

Every single other skier in Marcus Caston's bumps video is clearly a better bump skier. Of course, they are. They are Olympic mogul skiers.

 

[razie]

They are Olympic mogul skiers.

i.e. highly trained ... mind the yardstick . you don't like M.C's style. got it. won't win any bump competitions at a high level, but I love it... you think it skilled tho? do you have some self-taught bumpers to compare? I'm truly curious. I've seen a lot of words, let's get some video to compare...

 

[razie]

Let's say that I create a website where I'm the skiing guru with tons of advice. Then, I claim that if you can ski the line in moguls according to my style, you'll have the necessary skills to be a great skier in any venue. Next, I put up a video of myself skiing in a local GS race with amateurs, and I come in dead last. Finally, when people disagree with me, I argue with them on the ski forum with huge long posts trumpeting my greatness. That's what's happening here.......... except in reverse.........

so... no video, right? either bumps or... GS or... at least keeping the discussion technical-ish...?

 

[tball]

No, there are not many great non-trained off-piste skiers if you ask me.

@razie, with respect, what's your experience to make that claim? I'm a Colorado native with almost four decades as a dedicated skier, skiing primarily off-piste. I know many high-level skiers who've had minimal or no training.

Yes, sure, some kids grow up in bumps and can smoke them - can they show that level of performance elsewhere, like carve something, hip to snow on-piste or anything else? Why this uni-dimensionality is interesting?

Funny, from the perspective of an off-piste skier it's the groomer folks that are one-dimensional. Off-piste skiing entails bumps, trees, steeps, powder, open bowls... many dimensions. The common difference is 2D vs 3D skiing.

 

[razie]

Funny, from the perspective of an off-piste skier it's the groomer folks that are one-dimensional. Off-piste skiing entails bumps, trees, steeps, powder, open bowls... many dimensions. The common difference is 2D vs 3D skiing.

It's a subset issue, tball. I did not contest that on the "average", although like I said, we should also look at it backwards, but don't overlook decent racers and extrapolate to the entire set of "on piste" skiers, that's my point. There is nothing 2D about a race course. Don't be fooled by the word "ice". It rattles and digs into massive knee-deep ruts often... in answer to some recent questioning whether good racers can ski off-piste. I would say: duh

I know many high-level skiers who've had minimal or no training.

Let's get some videos up of those high-level self-taught skiers. I am truly curios and always up to change opinions as facts change. Let's get facts tho, i.e. video... right now I don't think they'd get close to a well-trained off-pister or racer that applies that skill to off-piste.

And on that rat hole thing - truly, if you can't absorb the virtual bump and flex to release, can one absorb the real bumps well? That's more like food for thought than something worth discussing...

 

[tball]

No doubt, great racers can also be great off-piste skiers.

There are lots of fantastic examples of racers who have put in the work to learn off-piste disciplines. One of my favorites is Wendy Fisher. I love her video tours of Crested Butte. Unfortunately, her steeps videos have disappeared from youtube. I can only find this FB version:



A contrasting example of a racer who hasn't put in the work to become a great off-piste skier is Picabo Street. When she was featured in this video, let's just say she needed a lot of work to become a good bump skier:



Can MS ski bumps? For sure if she's spent some time skiing them. It's hard to tell from her background though (from Wikipedia):

Born in Vail, Colorado,[2] Shiffrin is the second child of Eileen (née Condron) and Jeff Shiffrin, both originally from the Northeastern United States and former ski racers.[10][11] Shiffrin's father Jeff grew up in New Jersey, but was an avid skier on weekends in Vermont with his family; as an undergraduate, he raced for Dartmouth College in New Hampshire.[12] Her mother Eileen raced in high school in northwestern Massachusetts in the Berkshires,[11] and brother Taylor (born 1992), raced for the University of Denver.[13]​

​

When Mikaela was eight in 2003, the family moved to rural New Hampshire near Lyme,[14] where her father, an anesthesiologist, worked at Dartmouth–Hitchcock Medical Center. After five years, he took a new job in Denver;[15] her older brother Taylor was in high school at Burke Mountain Academy, a ski academy in northeastern Vermont, and stayed in the east. Shiffrin also attended middle school at Burke, but went with her parents to Colorado, before returning to Burke.[12][16] She has been treated for anxiety disorder and hyperactive type ADHD ever since she was a child.[17]​

If MS hadn't left Vail, I'm sure she'd kill it in the bumps. Did she have bumps to ski where she lived in New Hampshire? How about at Burke? Bumps are a lot like riding a bike, she'd still be great if she learned at some point.

 

[slowrider]

My experience which is very limited, I don't get out much. Carvers can ski most conditions. So can the off piste crowd. But most of them don't carve. Probably because it doesn't interest them.

 

[razie]

I don't know - maybe it's the "I'm a mom now, can't get hurt doing a promo video" - you can see she's holding back a lot. Some pretty steep bumps there tho .

 

[Sanity]

so... no video, right? either bumps or... GS or... at least keeping the discussion technical-ish...?

If I were to claim that my mogul skills were all you needed to win GS races, then I'd agree that my racing video would be relevant. Since you are claiming that only your carving skills are necessary to be a great mogul skier, then your mogul video is very relevant. I saw it by the way, which is why I don't hesitate to challenge you on this. Also, I did post some POV mogul skiing.

 

[razie]

Since you are claiming that only your carving skills are necessary to be a great mogul skier

Again with the carving versus the world Don Quixote would be proud... but pray tell where did I claim that? And especially why would "my" carving skills be important for someone else's mogul skiing? And in general, why does measuring things have to do with the applicability of ski technique?

I am trying to understand: are you saying that technique is not relevant off-piste? That there is no technique in bump skiing or that on-piste skills have no applicability in bumps? Or that someone that carves well has no interesting skills? Or that carving and bumps are incompatible? I'm wondering if you have an issue with me specifically, or if it's generalized?

The only video I know of me skiing bumps is my first ever and my second ever runs in bumps, sparked by a similar discussion here on this forum, many moons ago. Is that what you're referring to as a measuring stick of sorts? If asked, I would say that my bump skiing requires some work.

 

[tball]

Let's get some videos up of those high-level self-taught skiers. I am truly curios and always up to change opinions as facts change. Let's get facts tho, i.e. video... right now I don't think they'd get close to a well-trained off-pister or racer that applies that skill to off-piste.

And on that rat hole thing - truly, if you can't absorb the virtual bump and flex to release, can one absorb the real bumps well? That's more like food for thought than something worth discussing...

Ha! I'll post my bump video if you post yours!

I'll meet you over here where we can both ask for bump MA?

Personal ski videos

So, here's the deal. This thread is reopened again. The videos that are not of a personal nature will be left up HOWEVER, please stay on the topic and post only PERSONAL videos from this point forward. Please only comment/respond to those personal videos. Several posts have been removed. Don't...

www.skitalk.com

And, yes, I'm a self-taught skier. Not nearly as good as this gentleman who's also self-taught. I know many others, too.

 

[James]

What is the radius of the rabbit hole?

It’s a black hole. No one’s ever come back from measuring it. Only endless theories.