Shiffrin free skiing

[Sanity]

Keep on thinking that there's active rotary going on in these turns. MS is not using any active pivoting motion generated from the hip sockets. This is the passive "pivot" that I mentioned elsewhere. Your skiing will suffer if you believe that you must actively "steer" your skis.

The rotation here is a result of the motion for knee angulation, but by the time it's so steep that it's all a jump turn, then of course it's lots of hip socket. There are some very good skiers that discuss steering angle, so I think I'll be ok, but thanks for your concern.

 

[Average Joe]

That's really neat. There's also something demonstrated there that ties into a conversation we were having in another thread. You can see that the beginning of the new tracks are at an angle compared to the end of the old tracks. Also, you can see the angle of the skis changing before the location of the beginning of the new tracks. What this shows is rotation of the skis in the air. Since there is no connection to the ground it proves that the skier is providing rotary input through transition. It's called a steering angle. I think many people aren't aware of it, because it's just part of their motion to tip the skis. As the slope gets steeper the steering angle increases. There's not a whole lot of steering angle for these turns, but it's on very mellow terrain.

Tom Gellie owes a credit to Mike King for the impetus for this YouTube video Mike in his previous post here noted the weightless transition /lack of tracks on the corduroy!
The challenge in analyzing videos is to correctly note the movements that top skiers make that lead to the outcome that we (try to!) emulate. Tom Gellie does a good job at it and we're fortunate he makes and posts these videos.
I think that in these low pitched carving turns that the amount of rotation at the top of the turn is pretty minimal. When she gets onto steeper courses, the redirect /stivot movements become more necessary, but in these turns I watch for the early inclination of the upper body and it's direct effect on early high edge angles. Moving across transition with light feet helps facilitate early angles, which I think is the big takeaway from Tom's commentary.

 

[HardDaysNight]

Shiffren’s turns in the Gellie commentary are short, pulsed slalom turns in which she is looking to be on and off the edges as quickly as possible with maximum lateral displacement for minimal time. They are not, contrary to Gellie’s view, pure, carved arcs and are not intended to be. The top of the turn is deliberately truncated to achieve her goal. That much is obvious from the tracks. It is in these kinds of turns that a transitional “float” is essential.

There is, however, another kind of transition which facilitates a more complete carved arc when that is desired. Sasha Rearick in one session I worked with him describes this as remaining “heavy” through transition. Pressure is drawn from one foot to the other by progressive shortening/lengthening of the respective legs without any period of lightness (amazing or otherwise for those of a certain vintage!). It’s a very powerful, grounded kind of transition in which the skis track throughout the entire cycle as if they’re on rails. Very different from Shiffren’s turns here but ones that she certainly employs when she has the need.

 

[Mike King]

Shiffren’s turns in the Gellie commentary are short, pulsed slalom turns in which she is looking to be on and off the edges as quickly as possible with maximum lateral displacement for minimal time. They are not, contrary to Gellie’s view, pure, carved arcs and are not intended to be. The top of the turn is deliberately truncated to achieve her goal. That much is obvious from the tracks. It is in these kinds of turns that a transitional “float” is essential.

There is, however, another kind of transition which facilitates a more complete carved arc when that is desired. Sasha Rearick in one session I worked with him describes this as remaining “heavy” through transition. Pressure is drawn from one foot to the other by progressive shortening/lengthening of the respective legs without any period of lightness (amazing or otherwise for those of a certain vintage!). It’s a very powerful, grounded kind of transition in which the skis track throughout the entire cycle as if they’re on rails. Very different from Shiffren’s turns here but ones that she certainly employs when she has the need.

Watch how many of the skiers in this video are in float through the transition...

#283

 

[Average Joe]

For a bit of historical perspective on the evolution of the sport, here's the worlds best in 2001.


The equipment hasn't changed much since but the technique sure has. Gone is the wide stance, the upward movement in transition......skiing today is much more fluid and linked, and I think the transitions have seen much of the change.

 

[Steve]

Wow

 

[Noodler]

For a bit of historical perspective on the evolution of the sport, here's the worlds best in 2001.


The equipment hasn't changed much since but the technique sure has. Gone is the wide stance, the upward movement in transition......skiing today is much more fluid and linked, and I think the transitions have seen much of the change.

In 2001 they're still predominantly on straight long skis. So I would counter that the equipment change is what drove the technique changes we now see.

 

[Steve]

I don't think skis were straight and long in 2001. I found this https://skicanadamag.com/assets/pdf/01skilist.pdf which has plenty of 11-13m 170 Worldcup SL's.

I think you have to go back a little more in time for straight SL's.

 

[Steve]

"With the innovation of shaped skis around the turn of the 21st century, equipment used for slalom in international competition changed drastically. World Cup skiers commonly skied on slalom skis at a length of 203–207 centimetres (79.9–81.5 in) in the 1980s and 1990s but by the 2002 Olympic Winter Games in Salt Lake City, the majority of competitors were using skis measuring 160 cm (63.0 in) or less.

The downside of the shorter skis was that athletes found that recoveries were more difficult with a smaller platform underfoot. Out of concern for the safety of athletes, the FIS began to set minimum ski lengths for international slalom competition. The minimum was initially set at 155 cm (61.0 in) for men and 150 cm (59.1 in) for women, but was increased to 165 cm (65.0 in) for men and 155 cm (61.0 in) for women for the 2003–2004 season."

From https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Slalom_skiing

 

[Average Joe]

All of the WC skiers in the 2001 video learned and excelled using straight skis, then transitioned to shaped skis. Thank you Bode Miller, circa 1996-97.

Interesting to watch the same skiers in the race course, their turns look more modern! There's less time in a SL course for unnecessary movements, and you certainly don't want to spread your stance wider.
To be fair, warmup runs on a race hill on race day are different than what we are talking about, but nonetheless there has been a profound change in technique from the early days of shaped skis to today.

 

[Noodler]

I don't think skis were straight and long in 2001. I found this https://skicanadamag.com/assets/pdf/01skilist.pdf which has plenty of 11-13m 170 Worldcup SL's.

I think you have to go back a little more in time for straight SL's.

Most racers were slow to adopt the new shaped skis (other than Bode). Most were still rockin' those old boards in 2001.

 

[tomgellie]

Tom Gellie just posted a video analysis focusing on her transitions:

I think the title is a bit off, big takeaway from his commentary is that there is no early pressure.

It’s what you have to do these days to capture people’s attention. Title it with what people might want to hear but then explain your perspective

 

[Jamt]

That's really neat. There's also something demonstrated there that ties into a conversation we were having in another thread. You can see that the beginning of the new tracks are at an angle compared to the end of the old tracks. Also, you can see the angle of the skis changing before the location of the beginning of the new tracks. What this shows is rotation of the skis in the air. Since there is no connection to the ground it proves that the skier is providing rotary input through transition. It's called a steering angle. I think many people aren't aware of it, because it's just part of their motion to tip the skis. As the slope gets steeper the steering angle increases. There's not a whole lot of steering angle for these turns, but it's on very mellow terrain.

Steering angle and rotation are two different things, even though they are related.
In order to have a clean entry the ski must be pointing in roughly the same direction as the movement direction of the CoM when the pressure phase begins. The larger the difference the more the steering angle. ( There is also the angle between the skis movement direction and the direction it is pointing, but I'll skip that for now.)
When you end the previous turn the skis direction and the CoM direction cross. This means that the skis need to rotate "back" in order to get the clean entry mentioned above. This is what some refer to as passive rotary, but IMO you can also have steering angle with passive if you have a lot of counter.
In SL there is certainly a significant steering angle in most turns. It has been shown in some research that it is not one of the most important factors in determining performance (time). Other things such as having very little pressure in transition is much more important.

 

[Sanity]

Steering angle and rotation are two different things, even though they are related.
In order to have a clean entry the ski must be pointing in roughly the same direction as the movement direction of the CoM when the pressure phase begins. The larger the difference the more the steering angle. ( There is also the angle between the skis movement direction and the direction it is pointing, but I'll skip that for now.)
When you end the previous turn the skis direction and the CoM direction cross. This means that the skis need to rotate "back" in order to get the clean entry mentioned above. This is what some refer to as passive rotary, but IMO you can also have steering angle with passive if you have a lot of counter.
In SL there is certainly a significant steering angle in most turns. It has been shown in some research that it is not one of the most important factors in determining performance (time). Other things such as having very little pressure in transition is much more important.

The turn will start with a steering angle and as soon as possible, the racer will increase edging and pull back the skis to remove the steering. When the skis lock in edge it is very difficult to return to steering, you are locked into the carving track. If you misjudged you are in trouble.
The redirection/steering of the skis happen even if it looks like a pure carve, because you don't really carve until you have hit that critical edge angle. This has caused a lot of debate in the past because some view this as a pivot and others don't. I don't really care what its called, the important thing is what the steering angle is when the skis are engaged again.

 

[Uncle-A]

Because she is free skiing I wonder what type of ski she is skiing? One wouldn't think she is not on a full race ski from her WC skis, if she just out having fun. When you figure she can have any ski she wants, what does she chose for free skiing? A while back wasn't there a thread that talked about when she took a break and she got a pair of skis from some local ski shop?

 

[Jamt]

The turn will start with a steering angle and as soon as possible, the racer will increase edging and pull back the skis to remove the steering. When the skis lock in edge it is very difficult to return to steering, you are locked into the carving track. If you misjudged you are in trouble.
The redirection/steering of the skis happen even if it looks like a pure carve, because you don't really carve until you have hit that critical edge angle. This has caused a lot of debate in the past because some view this as a pivot and others don't. I don't really care what its called, the important thing is what the steering angle is when the skis are engaged again.

I don't think I said anything that contradicts this. I was primarily pointing out the difference between steering angle and rotation.

I don't really like the concept of critical angle. The skis react vastly different if you have a 2g upward acceleration compared to beeing static. Hence the last point in my signature.
Also, it is more like a continuum. like in this picture

 

[François Pugh]

Lets look at a well executed series of turns, from a pure math and physics perspective, on a hill with the fall line going directly north. While we are in the right turn, the skis are rotating clockwise, looking down at the skier. , i.e. skier is in a turn changing direction of travel from west to north, north to east. When we are in the left turn the skis are rotating counter clockwise. Skis go from rotating clockwise to rotating less in that direction, to rotating in the other direction. At the moment of transition skis are not rotating. In lieu of video, zoom in on the deep tracks on the left.

 

[Jamt]

Lets look at a well executed series of turns, from a pure math and physics perspective, on a hill with the fall line going directly north. While we are in the right turn, the skis are rotating clockwise, looking down at the skier. , i.e. skier is in a turn changing direction of travel from west to north, north to east. When we are in the left turn the skis are rotating counter clockwise. Skis go from rotating clockwise to rotating less in that direction, to rotating in the other direction. At the moment of transition skis are not rotating. In lieu of video, zoom in on the deep tracks on the left.
View attachment 133124

Good point. The way I view a transition it is not a moment in time. It is the period between turn phases.
In that regard the skis have rotated between the moments where you end real pressure and when you have it again.
That rotation can happen with the skis forming more or less continuous grooves like in your picture, or it can be "in the air" in the case of shorter turns.
They can also be passive, active and/or guided by the snow
I don't really care. All cases can be good or bad turns based on a number of other factors. The most important ones in my opinion are the ones I have in my signature.

 

[Mark1975]

Most racers were slow to adopt the new shaped skis (other than Bode). Most were still rockin' those old boards in 2001.

For what it is worth, I started racing on my first shaped GS ski, the 26M Atomic 10.26 in 1998. I switched to a short SL in 1999 using the 16M Atomic 9.16.

Many of us racers laughed at the first shaped skis that came out in the mid-1990s...until they came out with shaped race skis a few years later and we quickly realized that the long straight boards were simply not competitive anymore. The changeover happened very quickly. The goal of racing is to win, and if you can't win on something, you very quickly get on something that will.

 

[geepers]

The redirection/steering of the skis happen even if it looks like a pure carve, because you don't really carve until you have hit that critical edge angle.

Heard of Q angle, ramp angle, steering angle, edge angle and platform angle.

What's critical angle?

When the skis lock in edge it is very difficult to return to steering

Really? Resorts seem to be full of people having trouble stopping their skis from skidding unintentionally. This can be due to incorrect platform angle but it's also very commonly due to fore/aft balance issues, particularly being too far forward and pivoting the rear of the skis around a point towards the tips.