Shiffrin free skiing

[Uncle-A]

And she is just skiing casually with what seems like zero effort. Wow.

I have been reading all the analysis of the skiing, and that is one of the things we do here, but I just think it is better to watch what beautiful skiing looks like. You have to say it doesn't get any better than the way she skis.

 

[JESinstr]

IMO that definition misses the target. I can do circular travel with very slow wedge or brushed turns. I don't think many would call that carving.

Jamt I was hoping someone would challenge my definition but I must admit I was surprised it was you. There are multiple threads on this forum about carving and there are hundreds/thousands of videos and articles out there. Pretty much all are about how to carve and all are portrayed as a highly skilled and advanced maneuver but I can't seem to find anything about what carving is.

Skiing involves speed and the dynamics of that velocity makes defining the "what’s" and "when’s" of carving highly subjective. We know that when a plane exceeds 767 MPH, it has broken the sound barrier but there is no such absolute metric for carving so I put a stake in the ground and came up with my circular travel definition. It allows me to teach a progression that builds critical skiing skills right from the get go. BTW, I can do rr's at very low speed which leave two thin pencil marks in the snow. Is the ski not carving?

A lot of the contributors here in the "SKI SCHOOL" forum spend their teaching/coaching hours in the upper echelons of the sport when the other 99 percent of ski instructors spend their time with beginner and novice populations. What follows is not to impart technical knowledge but to try change how we think about the critical skills of the sport and that traditional progression methodology is ignoring the profound changes that have been made to the "tools of the trade" we call skis.

Along with creating circular travel, Carving is the process of "letting the ski turn you". This is the primary design point of the modern ski and in the last few years, I have developed a beginner progression that focuses on "through the arch" balance and alignment with, not the ski, but the edges of the ski.... ie, we ski on the edges of our feet.

Probably my biggest break from traditional progression is that I do not teach rotary. Rotary is a failure to carve. But when rotary happens (like in the formation of the wedge or intentional/unintentional skidding) I make sure redirection of the ski happens through and around the arch.

We know that when we carve, pressure comes from the ski to the skier not the other way around. That said, (and this is the conundrum with newbies) at low speed gravity is still the force of record and it is the skier's weight that begins the bending of the ski until velocity and ensuing centripetal force take over. Properly trained advanced skiers know this and adjust technique accordingly. Left to their own devices, an untrained skier will not have this knowledge and most assuredly develop and ingrain a pushing approach to skiing which is hard to reverse down the road.

So all I am advocating is that by defining carving as using the ski to convert straight travel to circular travel, allows me to educated and develop the necessary skills, that advanced skiers need and use, to beginners and hopefully avoid the bad habits they, more than likely, will invoke without proper training.

 

[Kreative1]

Pretty much all are about how to carve and all are portrayed as a highly skilled and advanced maneuver but I can't seem to find anything about what carving is.

Here is a definition from the PSIA ATM Part 1

Here is the definition as it appears in the most current PSIA Apline Technical Manual: "Carved Turns To make turns with minimal skidding by tipping the skis on edge and allowing the shape of the ski to create a turn with minimal lateral slipping or skidding. Carved turns display clean, long arcs in the snow as the entire edge of the ski passes through the same point in the snow. A skidded turn, by contrast, utilizes more muscular rotary movements to cause the ski to turn."

A lot of times people in these forums are arguing about things needlessly because of a lack of precise language and a willingness to listen to the other side. Would the use of rotary not also convert straight travel to circular travel? Maybe I missed the part where you explained your whole progression but I am curious to hear it.

 

[Seldomski]

Here is a definition from the PSIA ATM Part 1
<snip>
A skidded turn, by contrast, utilizes more muscular rotary movements to cause the ski to turn."

A lot of times people in these forums are arguing about things needlessly because of a lack of precise language and a willingness to listen to the other side. Would the use of rotary not also convert straight travel to circular travel? Maybe I missed the part where you explained your whole progression but I am curious to hear it.

How old is that manual? IMHO it should be revised.

Skidded turns are not all initiated by rotary steering forces. You can start a skidded turn by tipping the ski and pressuring the front (ie being forward). It skids because you do not continue to adjust fore/aft balance and tipping to maintain a clean cut. I do agree that a 'pure carved' turn will have minimal/zero lateral slippage. The tip follows the tail in a groove cut in the snow.

 

[geepers]

@ geepers looks like you have a typo. F=mass times (velocity squared) divided by turn radius.

Yeah, thanks. That should be Fc = m*v^2/r...

 

[Alexzn]

Of course Michaela is a beautiful skier. But I’d be very interested to see her making turns off piste. This is a slightly different skill set with an added reactive component. In all honesty, most of not all great racers are also great freeskiers. Bide Miller (on video), Swindal and Ganong (live) were a treat to watch off piste. I still think one of the greatest runs in the FWT history was Julia Mancuso’s in Verbier.

 

[Kreative1]

Skidded turns are not all initiated by rotary steering forces.

It did not specify that all skidded turns are initiated by rotary steering forces, simply that a skidded turn utilizes more muscular rotary movements to cause the turn to ski than a non-skidded turn.

 

[JESinstr]

Here is a definition from the PSIA ATM Part 1
View attachment 133389

Here is the definition as it appears in the most current PSIA Apline Technical Manual: "Carved Turns To make turns with minimal skidding by tipping the skis on edge and allowing the shape of the ski to create a turn with minimal lateral slipping or skidding. Carved turns display clean, long arcs in the snow as the entire edge of the ski passes through the same point in the snow. A skidded turn, by contrast, utilizes more muscular rotary movements to cause the ski to turn."

A lot of times people in these forums are arguing about things needlessly because of a lack of precise language and a willingness to listen to the other side. Would the use of rotary not also convert straight travel to circular travel? Maybe I missed the part where you explained your whole progression but I am curious to hear it.

I am not looking for precise language , I am looking for the lowest common denominator.

What is written above is very generalized and subjective IMO. What constitutes minimal skidding?

When rotary (twisting of the ski) is used for redirection you are defeating the circle/arc creating properties of the ski. So no, rotary does not create circular travel. As the saying goes, "it's either you turning the skis or the skis are turning you".

 

[Sanity]

I am not looking for precise language , I am looking for the lowest common denominator.

What is written above is very generalized and subjective IMO. What constitutes minimal skidding?

When rotary (twisting of the ski) is used for redirection you are defeating the circle/arc creating properties of the ski. So no, rotary does not create circular travel. As the saying goes, "it's either you turning the skis or the skis are turning you".

There's another issue. When you're skiing an arc, and each part of your edges are exactly in line with the tangent to that arc, then that's perfect edge locked carving. When parts of your edges are at an angle to the tangent, then it's still carving in many people's views, but it's different. The sensation is different, and some of the properties of the skis start changing, such as grip. In reality this perfect edge locked carving only happens as an approximation, and it's a spectrum from this ideal case to complete lateral skidding. For people going out to make turns, it probably doesn't make much difference the exact proportion of edges aligned with the arc, but if you start delving into the absolute limits of ski performance then those tiny difference do matter. So, there's carving in the sense that you tip the ski and it turns by it's own properties, but then there's carving with a stricter requirement of exactly how the edges line up with the arc. I don't know if there are any better terms, but it seems to me edge locked carving is a good term to describe this, and that's a lot of what we've been talking about.

 

[JESinstr]

There's another issue. When you're skiing an arc, and each part of your edges are exactly in line with the tangent to that arc, then that's perfect edge locked carving. When parts of your edges are at an angle to the tangent, then it's still carving in many people's views, but it's different. The sensation is different, and some of the properties of the skis start changing, such as grip. In reality this perfect edge locked carving only happens as an approximation, and it's a spectrum from this ideal case to complete lateral skidding. For people going out to make turns, it probably doesn't make much difference the exact proportion of edges aligned with the arc, but if you start delving into the absolute limits of ski performance then those tiny difference do matter. So, there's carving in the sense that you tip the ski and it turns by it's own properties, but then there's carving with a stricter requirement of exactly how the edges line up with the arc. I don't know if there are any better terms, but it seems to me edge locked carving is a good term to describe this, and that's a lot of what we've been talking about.

Not doubting any of what you wrote. All I am advocating is that the modern teaching progression should be aimed at utilizing the circle/arc capabilities of the ski which, when properly activated by a process of movement patterns, is what I call the act of carving. How pure or un-pure the outcome and whether the outcome is intentional or unintentional is a function of skill development and management.

 

[jimtransition]

Of course Michaela is a beautiful skier. But I’d be very interested to see her making turns off piste. This is a slightly different skill set with an added reactive component. In all honesty, most of not all great racers are also great freeskiers. Bide Miller (on video), Swindal and Ganong (live) were a treat to watch off piste. I still think one of the greatest runs in the FWT history was Julia Mancuso’s in Verbier.

I too would like to see Mikaela ski off piste, I bet she would be awesome. Have you seen the vids of Hirscher skiing moguls/hitting the couloir gap at the Fieberbrunn FWT? Savage.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....I can't seem to find anything about what carving is.
....I can do rr's at very low speed which leave two thin pencil marks in the snow. Is the ski not carving?
....I am not looking for precise language , I am looking for the lowest common denominator. What is written above is very generalized and subjective IMO. What constitutes minimal skidding?

Carving is a turn that leaves two pencil-thin tracks -- on hard snow. Those tracks are what "minimal skidding" means.

How the ski and the snow interact to make that happen, and how the skier moves to get it to happen, are important. But to keep a definition simple, the clear sign that carving is happening on a hard snow surface is the tracks. The tails follow the tips. RRTrx at very low speed that leave pencil-thin tracks is definitely carving. Skiers can leave those tracks at higher speeds as well if they train for it.

On soft snow, for carving, aka "minimal skidding" to occur, the tails follow the tips. The snow falls away to make the tracks wider at apex, so they are not going to be pencil-thin.

As far as I am concerned, when defining carving on hard snow, all one needs is the thin tracks. Since so many recreational skiers like to think they are "carving" firm groomers when they aren't, such a narrow definition is important. It helps clarify that skidding skiers who sense a bit of grip at the end of the turn are not carving. The term "carving" gets reserved for something special that they can reach for. A looser definition of carving puts a stamp of approval on that common misunderstanding of how well skidding skis are performing.

 

[LiquidFeet]

There is some very important content that is missing in these discussions that define carving and skidding as if they exist on opposite ends of a single spectrum. That missing content addresses the broad variety of skidded turns that happen as a result of different movement patterns.

Skidded turns can made by a skier manipulating the platform angle by laterally moving/placing the CoM (angulating) relative to the feet, or by laterally moving/placing the feet relative to the CoM, or by flattening the skis.

Skidded turns can be made by manual rotation of the skis over the snow (foot rotation or femur rotation) about a pivot point in front of the binding or under the arch, or under the heel.

Skidded turns can be made by manipulating fore-aft balance through the turn.

And skidded turns can be made by using upper body rotation to initiate a turn with flattish skis on hard snow.

There is no good-bad-ugly implied here, just different ways of making non-carved turns.

"Carving" is a narrow category. You're either carving or you aren't. But "skidding" is a broad one, a large family of turns. We need names for those different types of skidded turns so they don't all get clumped under one single term.

The difference between the definition of carving and all the various types of skidded turns should be decisive. That decisiveness should depend on the narrow definition of what a carved turn is.

 

[JESinstr]

There is some very important content that is missing in these discussions that define carving and skidding as if they exist on opposite ends of a single spectrum. That missing content addresses the broad variety of skidded turns that happen as a result of different movement patterns.

Skidded turns can made by a skier manipulating the platform angle by laterally moving/placing the CoM (angulating) relative to the feet, or by laterally moving/placing the feet relative to the CoM, or by flattening the skis.

Skidded turns can be made by manual rotation of the skis over the snow (foot rotation or femur rotation) about a pivot point in front of the binding or under the arch, or under the heel.

Skidded turns can be made by manipulating fore-aft balance through the turn.

And skidded turns can be made by using upper body rotation to initiate a turn with flattish skis on hard snow.

There is no good-bad-ugly implied here, just different ways of making non-carved turns.

"Carving" is a narrow category. You're either carving or you aren't. But "skidding" is a broad one, a large family of turns. We need names for those different types of skidded turns so they don't all get clumped under one single term.

The difference between the definition of carving and all the various types of skidded turns should be decisive. That decisiveness should depend on the narrow definition of what a carved turn is.

LF, with all due respect, I think your initial assumption is fundamentally flawed.
The spectrum is between pure carving (circular travel) and sliding (straight line travel), skidding is what happens between the two.
All the skidding variations you stated after your assumption are indeed valid but just go to demonstrate the multitude of variables that can take place between the two ends of the spectrum not to mention if those outcomes are intentional or unintentional.

This is why I base my teaching methodology on the conversion of straight line travel (energy) to circular travel (energy)
This is takes the "multi meaning" word "turn" out of execution terminology in puts it into the resultant terminology where it belongs.

 

[4ster]

So that's "critical edge angle" or "platform angle" in a nutshell. Basically, if the ski is tipped perpendicular or to an acute angle with the line of force, the ski will tend to hold. When tipped to an obtuse angle (greater than 90 degrees) to the line of force, the force will tend to push the ski right off its platform and cause it to skid, no matter how high the edge angle on the snow surface. (Of course, if you want to get picky and technical, factors such as the ski's torsional stiffness--how much it twists along its length when tipped on edge--come into play, skewing the numbers somewhat. Overall sharpness, base and side edge bevels, and snow conditions factor in as well.)

This is how I have always understood or thought of it at least when it comes to carving & edge angles along with all the other mitigating factors.

Skiing to me is part science but application is athletic expression, so part science & part art. Someone like Shiffrin has spent her formative years & training time on the science part & eliminating variables. I think once she steps in the starting gate or on the very rare occasion that she simply “free” skis down the hill the art & her artistic expression shines through & the science becomes an afterthought.

I think the same holds true for developing skiers at least if they are serious about it, the science is at the forefront until the movements & the application become second nature. For us mere mortals that ski a lot in every imaginable condition the science needs to be often revisited so the skills & movements remain honed but when we are actually out on the hill playing it is the art that shines through!

 

[LiquidFeet]

LF, with all due respect, I think your initial assumption is fundamentally flawed....

@JESinstr, as we have discussed in the past, I find your way of conceptualizing skiing unduly complicated. This is the internet and communication here relies heavily on words. I have no doubt that on snow your use of straight line travel and circular travel, your definition of "carving," and your choice of not using the word "turn," works well in person. I remember you also work with gravity and inertia to describe how a turn works.

Those descriptors are just not working for me, here, online. I get that you find what I think to be fundamentally flawed. However, I do not think that about your way of thinking. I don't find the content your conceptualization describes to be different from what I know, or at least I can't remember if something you know differs from something I know. I believe it's how we cut up the pie that's different.

I simply find other ways of describing skiing to be more direct and more easily communicated to non-instructors and instructors alike.

That said, I do find it amazing that you said "I can't seem to find anything about what carving is."

 

[JESinstr]

@JESinstr, as we have discussed in the past, I find your way of conceptualizing skiing unduly complicated. This is the internet and communication here relies heavily on words. I have no doubt that on snow your use of straight line travel and circular travel, your definition of "carving," and your choice of not using the word "turn," works well in person. I remember you also work with gravity and inertia to describe how a turn works.

Those descriptors are just not working for me, here, online. I get that you find what I think to be fundamentally flawed. However, I do not think that about your way of thinking. I don't find the content your conceptualization describes to be different from what I know, or at least I can't remember if something you know differs from something I know. I believe it's how we cut up the pie that's different.

I simply find other ways of describing skiing to be more direct and more easily communicated to non-instructors and instructors alike.

That said, I do find it amazing that you said "I can't seem to find anything about what carving is."

How about this. You are a big fan of pivot slips right? Well if done correctly, your skis turn but you travel in a straight line.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Of course. That's because I do special things to keep them traveling in a straight line. People learning to do pivot slips initially have a very difficult time getting the skis to not turn and take them left-right across the hill. Learning to purge the turn is a big deal.

Are we arguing about something?

 

[Seldomski]

Are we arguing about something?

You must be new here

 

[JESinstr]

Of course. That's because I do special things to keep them traveling in a straight line. People learning to do pivot slips initially have a very difficult time getting the skis to not turn and take them left-right across the hill. Learning to purge the turn is a big deal.

Are we arguing about something?

Not at all! In fact this is going well

All I am promoting here is that we can teach "special things" to our beginners that allow them to use the tools on their feet to get them from point A to point B in a circular pathway . And We don't have to wait until they become "experts" to do it.

Simple "Special things" like learning new focuses for balance through the arch and on the sides of their foot.

I am trying to bring the definition of "Carving" to the beginner level and to do that we need to think of carving in terms of ski utilization, not an observation. For years we have been teaching beginners to go from A to B with a rotary initiation and where has that gotten us? Just a whole population of heel pushers. It really doesn't have to be that way.