Shiffrin free skiing

[François Pugh]

Bob would (and has) called it defensive. He has pointed out the difference between some WC mogul skiers who have a high degree of pivoting (braking) versus those who are bending the ski and carving (think Patrick Deneen).

Personally, I have no dog in this fight. Bob rightly points out that a pure carved turn exists only in theory and that all turns involve some degree of skidding. So what defines the difference? Intent. Here's the whole discussion:

View attachment 133494 View attachment 133495 View attachment 133496

I think the disconnect here is that pure carving-pure slipping illustration gives one the impression it is a gradual, linear transition from carving to not carving. In my experience it is more like

(numbers made up to illustrate the point.) Pure carving has 0 perpendicular velocity and 100% tangential velocity.

 

[JESinstr]

Assuming by entry angle you mean the prediction problem, this discussion by Guy Dale is interesting. The other two also have something to say on the topic as well.

Exactly. And whereas the engineers can figure a mathematical solution for a space vehicle to execute, IMO a skier can only rely on experience that comes from many hours of practice.

So what do you think Shiffrin is thinking as she executes those turns? At her level is it automagical or is she constantly fine tuning her trade?

 

[4ster]

At her level is it automagical or is she constantly fine tuning her trade?

Both

 

[Tim Hodgson]

That video geepers posted above is excellent. High level skiers talking about their specific struggles of the kind we are talking about here. Discussing what they are trying to accomplish by doing what "looks" right, but is not right and then accomplishing it in different ways:

 

[Noodler]

Was 13 when Neil, Buzz and Mike did their thing. Embarrassed to recall by the time Dave Scott drove moon buggy I made the statement "Seen one moon walk, seen them all." But back then the possibilities seemed limitless. And now...?? Flat earth societies all over the globe....

One thing I did recall was that dip into and out of the atmosphere on Apollo re-entry. Which is hard to work in to a ski turn entry angle metaphor. Except maybe as double edging drill...

Assuming by entry angle you mean the prediction problem, this discussion by Guy Dale is interesting. The other two also have something to say on the topic as well.





Discussed in that vid about the 12 minute mark.

Their "bigger struggle" is hip dumping on every single turn...

 

[geepers]

I think the disconnect here is that pure carving-pure slipping illustration gives one the impression it is a gradual, linear transition from carving to not carving. In my experience it is more like
View attachment 133553
(numbers made up to illustrate the point.) Pure carving has 0 perpendicular velocity and 100% tangential velocity.

Expect the exact point of roll-off and slope of that line would be endlessly debatable. But, MHO, width of tracks left in the snow is a pretty good proxy.

 

[geepers]

Exactly. And whereas the engineers can figure a mathematical solution for a space vehicle to execute, IMO a skier can only rely on experience that comes from many hours of practice.

So what do you think Shiffrin is thinking as she executes those turns? At her level is it automagical or is she constantly fine tuning her trade?

Probably constantly fine tuning unconscious competence.

Jurij Franko reckons robots currently make poor skiers and will continue to be so until they are fitted with learning, predictive algorithms for this sort of purpose. Unlike computers playing Chess or GO who have learnt to beat humans by playing millions of games in short time sitting on a desk competing against other algos, they'll have to accumulate mileage on the hill same as we do.

 

[Dakine]

Interesting example of what Robots can and cannot do.
The Yamaha Motobot v. Valentino Rossi on a Ducati.
Some assembly required...
Motobot v Rossi

 

[Mike King]

I think the disconnect here is that pure carving-pure slipping illustration gives one the impression it is a gradual, linear transition from carving to not carving. In my experience it is more like
View attachment 133553
(numbers made up to illustrate the point.) Pure carving has 0 perpendicular velocity and 100% tangential velocity.

I think you missed Bob's point. He agrees with you. Hence why he uses intent.

 

[razie]

Dunno, Tim. MHO is that JB91710 does a lot of pivoting. The ski may well be turning his feet but it is via fore/aft oversteer not the ski sidecut.



The tracks do not show evidence much carving occurred.

Nevertheless, that's a very good point: a lot of pros teach outcomes as opposed of teaching inputs - i.e. how to produce the outcome. That generates a lot of this mismatched "turn your feet because I see them turning" kind of thing, imho...

 

[Muleski]

I never frequent this part of SkiTalk....as I'm not an instructor. I have been heavily involved in the ski racing game for almost all of my 65 years. My parents were both ski racers {and Olympians} and our family has followed them.

I actually know Mikaela, and her mom...and met her dad when we were in college. I think that I know virtually every coach that she has ever had. Including her current team, the team before Mike Day's, her coach and team at Burke, etc. Let's say I've been pretty close to a lot of her skiing. In a few ways.

She is one of many that I follow on IG. I saw the post and thought "That's kind of fun for her. She's wearing a coat of Mike's or Jeff Lackie's, and just having some fun, playful almost, probably keeping warm as somebody resets, or whatever." Thought the corduroy looked pretty nice, and the terrain kind of fun. Saw her slow and pull over to the snowmobile for a ride or tow up. And that is it.......no more.

I guess I wondered who was on the follow cam. As one of my adult coach kids often has had that role during days working with her. I actually thought it was interesting that they had a camera, as she is clearly NOT training. She's to working on a thing there. IMO. I seriously think, folks, she was just relaxing and having fun. No work. And yeah, wearing a long coaches coat. That made me chuckle as after a recent FIS race, my son sent me a pic of one of his athletes who had skied down after her run wearing his big team coaches coat, size XXL, which literally touched her boots. She's about 95 lbs.

Then, I saw that it had been posted here, when it first appeared in "new posts". And I thought to myself "this will be interesting....Going to be a lot of opinions, perhaps some overthinking, etc." Thought I'd check back in later on.

150 posts.....not shocked in any respect.

 

[Rod9301]

Nevertheless, that's a very good point: a lot of pros teach outcomes as opposed of teaching inputs - i.e. how to produce the outcome. That generates a lot of this mismatched "turn your feet because I see them turning" kind of thing, imho...

Not sure if that's what you mean, but in the last years I've been concentrating on whether my skis go where i want them to go instead of thinking of technique.

Of course, revenue matters, do if i slip on unexpected ice, i raise my uphill hip, for example.

 

[Doug Briggs]

I never frequent this part of SkiTalk....as I'm not an instructor. I have been heavily involved in the ski racing game for almost all of my 65 years. My parents were both ski racers {and Olympians} and our family has followed them.

I actually know Mikaela, and her mom...and met her dad when we were in college. I think that I know virtually every coach that she has ever had. Including her current team, the team before Mike Day's, her coach and team at Burke, etc. Let's say I've been pretty close to a lot of her skiing. In a few ways.

She is one of many that I follow on IG. I saw the post and thought "That's kind of fun for her. She's wearing a coat of Mike's or Jeff Lackie's, and just having some fun, playful almost, probably keeping warm as somebody resets, or whatever." Thought the corduroy looked pretty nice, and the terrain kind of fun. Saw her slow and pull over to the snowmobile for a ride or tow up. And that is it.......no more.

I guess I wondered who was on the follow cam. As one of my adult coach kids often has had that role during days working with her. I actually thought it was interesting that they had a camera, as she is clearly NOT training. She's to working on a thing there. IMO. I seriously think, folks, she was just relaxing and having fun. No work. And yeah, wearing a long coaches coat. That made me chuckle as after a recent FIS race, my son sent me a pic of one of his athletes who had skied down after her run wearing his big team coaches coat, size XXL, which literally touched her boots. She's about 95 lbs.

Then, I saw that it had been posted here, when it first appeared in "new posts". And I thought to myself "this will be interesting....Going to be a lot of opinions, perhaps some overthinking, etc." Thought I'd check back in later on.

150 posts.....not shocked in any respect.

Mmmm. Coach's coat.

 

[Muleski]

Mmmm. Coach's coat.

Have no pics......you know them. Plain black USST issue, a team patch or two. Made by Spyder over the years. Made of iron, ;one warm, big hoods. Obviously not worn during any photo ops.....like the entire team on the podium. When the USST media types are screaming "not in that coat...."

The coach with whom I share DNA who works with her at times often has on the warmest coaches coat that he has.......Norge. He would NOT be in any pics that find their way to the media, social or otherwise.....Haha.

It also could be one of her Mom's on hill coats. Her mom often really layers up, and goes long. Hood big enough to easily cover a helmet and the fake fur.....like the old "Snorkel Coats.

Dunno.......I still just thought she looked like she was having some fun and enjoying it. Which I would certainly celebrate, and which I KNOW has been very important this past season.

That's all folks.........

 

[Doug Briggs]

Mmmm as in I like. I have a black one that is knee length, lightly insulated and goes over anything I have including a very puffy down parka. On zero degree and blowy days at Breck or as a starter at Loveland where the sun never rises above the pass, it is priceless.

 

[Muleski]

Mmmm as in I like. I have a black one that is knee length, lightly insulated and goes over anything I have including a very puffy down parka. On zero degree and blowy days at Breck or as a starter at Loveland where the sun never rises above the pass, it is priceless.

Got it!!

My wife has one that she wore to watch every freezing cold ski race, including those that she worked. Doug, you know that the home hill of Sugarloaf, at the top of Narrow Gauge can get cold. And back then.....there was a lot of speed racing and training going on. Also seemed like every NorAm speed race was in an ice box, when we travelled.

Her coat was also a Norwegian coat, made by Phenix. White, down insulated, with a real fur color on a huge hood. would zip up to cover everything below goggles. Knee length and sized to fit everything but the kitchen sink under it. That thing was amazing.

Big, bulky and sized up works, when you want warmth....HaHa.

Some of the start jackets that we had for cold days for our kids and friends looked like they were pulled out of a dumpster, and worked. A couple of old military coats, bought for about $3 at a local thrift shop were big favorites. Come to think of it, they could have passed for USST Land Rover issue......perfect colors.

 

[dj61]

Check out the high level of discussion re the Tom Gellie video analysis of Mikala Shrifrin skiing in the Comments below this video:



I particularly like this instructor/coach's description:

JB91710
BINGO! Then vast majority of humans are Two Dimensional Reactors instead of Three Dimensional Thinkers. They see feet turning so they say, "Turn your feet" They feel pressure so they say, "Make pressure." They see legs at an angle so they say, "Tip your legs." Thanks ***** for that genius description of what skiing Looks Like instead of teaching people how to ski. All they are doing is bring attention to what parts of the body look and feel like and call that teaching.

Jb91710 is not an instructor and he is clearly struggling on a bunny hill. No edge hold whatsoever, leaning into the turn. Hecwould would fail on anything more demanding.

 

[AlpedHuez]

Have no pics......you know them. Plain black USST issue, a team patch or two. Made by Spyder over the years. Made of iron, ;one warm, big hoods. Obviously not worn during any photo ops.....like the entire team on the podium. When the USST media types are screaming "not in that coat...."

The coach with whom I share DNA who works with her at times often has on the warmest coaches coat that he has.......Norge. He would NOT be in any pics that find their way to the media, social or otherwise.....Haha.

It also could be one of her Mom's on hill coats. Her mom often really layers up, and goes long. Hood big enough to easily cover a helmet and the fake fur.....like the old "Snorkel Coats.

Dunno.......I still just thought she looked like she was having some fun and enjoying it. Which I would certainly celebrate, and which I KNOW has been very important this past season.

That's all folks.........

The coat is by Stella McCartney for Adidas -- you know, Paul's daughter. It's not a (borrowed) coach's coat or her mom's. That was kinda the whole point of Mikaela's Insta post - skiing in a designer outfit to promote her watch sponsor, Longines. Of course we at SkiTalk are focusing on her skiing, but Mikaela's lifestyle/fashion followers and influencers will be looking at the coat and say I want that (or the cheaper knock-offs that surely followed her post). Not her technique,

 

[jimtransition]

I never frequent this part of SkiTalk....as I'm not an instructor. I have been heavily involved in the ski racing game for almost all of my 65 years. My parents were both ski racers {and Olympians} and our family has followed them.

I actually know Mikaela, and her mom...and met her dad when we were in college. I think that I know virtually every coach that she has ever had. Including her current team, the team before Mike Day's, her coach and team at Burke, etc. Let's say I've been pretty close to a lot of her skiing. In a few ways.

She is one of many that I follow on IG. I saw the post and thought "That's kind of fun for her. She's wearing a coat of Mike's or Jeff Lackie's, and just having some fun, playful almost, probably keeping warm as somebody resets, or whatever." Thought the corduroy looked pretty nice, and the terrain kind of fun. Saw her slow and pull over to the snowmobile for a ride or tow up. And that is it.......no more.

I guess I wondered who was on the follow cam. As one of my adult coach kids often has had that role during days working with her. I actually thought it was interesting that they had a camera, as she is clearly NOT training. She's to working on a thing there. IMO. I seriously think, folks, she was just relaxing and having fun. No work. And yeah, wearing a long coaches coat. That made me chuckle as after a recent FIS race, my son sent me a pic of one of his athletes who had skied down after her run wearing his big team coaches coat, size XXL, which literally touched her boots. She's about 95 lbs.

Then, I saw that it had been posted here, when it first appeared in "new posts". And I thought to myself "this will be interesting....Going to be a lot of opinions, perhaps some overthinking, etc." Thought I'd check back in later on.

150 posts.....not shocked in any respect.

I guess it's off season and most people not skiing. I wonder if this generated more debate because the skiing is more 'real world' than what we usually see Mikaela ski. Everyone can relate to carving on a groomer, not so much to an injected wc course.

 

[Muleski]

The coat is by Stella McCartney for Adidas -- you know, Paul's daughter. It's not a (borrowed) coach's coat or her mom's. That was kinda the whole point of Mikaela's Insta post - skiing in a designer outfit to promote her watch sponsor, Longines. Of course we at SkiTalk are focusing on her skiing, but Mikaela's lifestyle/fashion followers and influencers will be looking at the coat and say I want that (or the cheaper knock-offs that surely followed her post). Not her technique, View attachment 133649

COMPLETELY missed that! Interesting. And, thanks!
Quite a business enterprise....