Should the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many?

Philpug

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This thread is for the general discussion of the Article Should the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many?. Please add to the discussion here.
 
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Chip

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Reminds me of what is happening with car manufacturers as for appeasing to the masses. Try to find cars with a manual shifter in todays world. Getting harder to do.

But does this help out the smaller ski manufacturers, as they can start making skis that check certain boxes and are geared towards the more refined palate of needs?
 

Pat AKA mustski

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I think there is a place both for specific skill skis and a place for a ski that appeals to the masses. The skis that appeal to the masses bring in a surge in $$ during the year that they are introduced. However, I would guess that skiers who are targeted in the "easy to ski" market don't purchase skis very often. I have friends who haven't purchased a new ski in 10 years. They only ski BBMR and are quite happy with their gear. It's not something that I can relate to. I like having a variety of skis in my quiver. I probably have far more than I need. Included in my quiver is an easy to ski cruiser for groomers because I spend a lot of time at BBMR which is pretty much all groomers - except after a big snowfall.

All that said, if the ski doesn't change/improve in some way ... there is no reason to purchase the newer model. I definitely have some brand loyalty - ie: skis that I have always liked. In the end, I think ski companies likely make many more $$$ off those of us who have a bit of a gear addiction and find new skis sexy!
 

Carl

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Reminds me of what is happening with car manufacturers as for appeasing to the masses. Try to find cars with a manual shifter in todays world. Getting harder to do.

My Audi has a 6 speed manual V6. That combo hasn't been available for a while now. I'm holding onto it as long as possible.
 
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Bad Bob

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That seems to have been a norm for the ski industry for a long time.

A ski is put out that has the "it" factor.
A number of decent skiers move to it.
More intermediates want that ski because better skiers are on it.
Ski manufacturers detune it to make the masses happier. Put it out with the same name and graphics.
Better skiers grumble and move on to another ski.

Probably true in most consumer equipment.
 

tomahawkins

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More intermediates want that ski because better skiers are on it.
Ski manufacturers detune it to make the masses happier. Put it out with the same name and graphics.
Better skiers grumble and move on to another ski.

Skiers and manufactures need to coordinate with a secret qualifier: "Hey buddy, you want the Monster~ (tildy). I'll get one from the back..."

Head did have the Monster X and the Monster Ti, both with the same shape and topsheet, but apparently the X was so bad even intermediates didn't like it.
 
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Head did have the Monster X and the Monster Ti, both with the same shape and topsheet, but apparently the X was so bad even intermediates didn't like it.
The Monster 83 X was to be used in rental/premium rental fleets. And no it wasn't that bad of a ski, I skied it and it was a fine ski for what it was designed for.
 

fatbob

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Dunno hardgoods isn't awash with vast margins so maybe the skicos should just make what helps them stay in business. And the afficionados who simply must have a ski which absolutely meets all of their personal attributes can enjoy the hunt or get something truly custom.

I
 

VickieH

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What confuses me is when a manufacturer does make a change to a ski from one year to the next which entirely changes the ski's characteristics, but still calls it the same name.
You mean like the 2006 Toyota RAV4? 14 inches longer than the 2005 version. The 2005 was fun to drive. The 2006 RAV4 was more like the older Highlander.

Since reading the first post, I have tried to think of an industry where the wants of the few outweigh the wants of the many. I haven't come up with one yet.
 

ski otter 2

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I enjoyed the article and the premise, just such fun specific ski changes. I bet folks could come up with great lists of the skis that had such character for them. Nice to root for the skis that take chances and challenge us.

Still, I have to say that even with skis that have a lot of character or individual identity, there will be different good skiers who like different skis. So there will still be lots of subjective variety in a list of such top skis. What for me is a breakthrough, a "wow," might not be for the next guy.
 

crgildart

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It's the archer, not the arrow. How significantly different are the SL, GS, DH, Freeride, Pike. Bump skis used by the top 10 pros than what the other pros are using in each discipline? I'd guess not all that different. Those designs roll out to the public a few years down the road.. Tuning and technique are the main differentiators.. Everything else is trying to buy a turn.. Well, since everyone followed Bode to shaped skis that is...
 

François Pugh

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It is what it is. The article itself shows how far the needs of the many have overcome the wants of the few, "At the top of the collection is the Disruption Ti2, a 70 mm waisted long radius sabre"
Check the K2 marketing blurb just to make sure...
"Looking to turn the mountain into your personal GS course? You've come to the right place. The Disruption Ti2 is a no-holds-barred, stable-as-a-rock speed demon that doesn't know the meaning of second place. Dark Matter Damping, a long turn radius, and our new Ti2 I-Beam construction – with twice as much metal as our Disruption MTi – combine to make this the most damp, stable piste ski we've ever built. Buckle your seatbelt - these monsters have the need. The need for speed.
111/71/96 • Speed Rocker • 22.3m @ 182 "

If I'm flying down the mountain at warp schnell I want a longer radius, but I'm one of the few. I guess for the many, a no-hold-barred speed demon means a ski that cruises at speeds for which a 23 m radius is just fine.
 

DanoT

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If I'm flying down the mountain at warp schnell I want a longer radius, but I'm one of the few. I guess for the many, a no-hold-barred speed demon means a ski that cruises at speeds for which a 23 m radius is just fine.

IMO, using turning radius as a metric for ski purchasing is overrated. As soon as you flex a ski it is no longer on the radius that is printed on the ski. Even if you put a ski on edge without flexing, how long are you staying on that 20m arc or 25m arc?

What a 20m turning radius vs 25m is best for is determining on the ski shop sales floor which ski is likely to be more turny than the other. Of course ski longitudinal stiffness and torsional stiffness are just as big or bigger factors in ease of turning.
 
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IMO, using turning radius as a metric for ski purchasing is overrated. As soon as you flex a ski it is no longer on the radius that is printed on the ski. Even if you put a ski on edge without flexing, how long are you staying on that 20m arc or 25m arc?

What a 20m turning radius vs 25m is best for is determining on the ski shop sales floor which ski is likely to be more turny than the other. Of course ski longitudinal stiffness and torsional stiffness are just as big or bigger factors in ease of turning.

 

oldschoolskier

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All I can say is.......

Marketing Department........

Live in a fantasy world and have the skills to convenience almost everyone its a great idea when it really truly sucks.

Unfortunately we all suffer for it. The solution get rid of marketing and really listen to the masses.

Case in point......Pivot 15!
 

4ster

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After reading @Philpug ’s article it dawned on me that ever since the manufacturers began catering to what they think the masses want need, I can’t find a ski that fits my particular wants & needs.
It sounds like the AM88 may come close but not quite. Please build me a 95ish/mm, full camber ski without much or any metal, that turns on a dime, doesn’t wobble on the steep chalk & grips the slick like an ice skate!
I will somehow hack my way through the crud & bumps ogwink
 
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François Pugh

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IMO, using turning radius as a metric for ski purchasing is overrated. As soon as you flex a ski it is no longer on the radius that is printed on the ski. Even if you put a ski on edge without flexing, how long are you staying on that 20m arc or 25m arc?

What a 20m turning radius vs 25m is best for is determining on the ski shop sales floor which ski is likely to be more turny than the other. Of course ski longitudinal stiffness and torsional stiffness are just as big or bigger factors in ease of turning.
Not much difference between 23 and 25. Big difference between 25 and 45 or 50 or 70.
 
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