Should the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many?

[François Pugh]

But I don't think this is the case. Head could have afforded to keep limited production of Monsters while mass producing and marketing Kores. But they didn't; they killed the Monster line. Why? Because I think having two semi-competing lines, albeit at different skill levels, under the same brand is difficult to market. People want to know they are buying the best, most advanced skis, but if they are beyond their skill level, the skier has a hard time of it and follow-on business suffers. But if you kill off the Monsters, Kores take the top spot by default, and a larger percentage of skiers are happy about their purchase and skiing better because of it.

That said, Blizzard seems to be managing this competing balance well with the Rustlers and the Bulls.

I agree. Selling a ski to the masses as the best top level charger at the same time as you are selling a better one to the few can be difficult to explain, even to the masses.

 

[KingGrump]

I‘ve never heard of IDOne skis?

Known for their competition bump skis.

ID One Mogul Skis?

Was watching Olympic mogul skiing last night and noticed that almost all of the competitors were on ID One skis. Does anyone know anything about this brand? Checked out there website and they also make all mountain skis. From the description of their different models they seem to be coming from...

www.skitalk.com

 

[DanishRider]

I had to look up the Cupra Formentor, since it’s not here in the US. Sweet-looking vehicle!

It is a “sporty” SUV, that is quite fun to drive

 

[Wendy]

Known for their competition bump skis.

ID One Mogul Skis?

Was watching Olympic mogul skiing last night and noticed that almost all of the competitors were on ID One skis. Does anyone know anything about this brand? Checked out there website and they also make all mountain skis. From the description of their different models they seem to be coming from...

www.skitalk.com

They do make “all mountain” skis. That’s what I have. It’s fairly narrow at 78 underfoot though,

 

[4ster]

They do make “all mountain” skis. That’s what I have. It’s fairly narrow at 78 underfoot though,

I read your review, sounds like a quality ski.

 

[SSSdave]

Isn't this a conversation about skis that perform better for those that prefer to ski faster with greater forces versus those content to ski at more moderate speeds with less forces? A legacy of a ski industry that for decades was pro racer-centric? One might add that decades ago that resulted in total domination by narrow waisted, extra long skis with little design experimentation. A ski media that regularly pounded in the narrative to new skiers that better more enjoyable skiing once one arrives is all about speed and higher forces?

That began to crumble slowly with the rise of mogul skiing in the 70s/80s and then mountain free skiing though the resistance from the racer centric industry over years was considerable causing a caustic schizophrenic split with enthusiasts. Even today, there are only modest numbers of advanced skiers that find skiing at more moderate speeds with less forces their sweet spot though within the industry, many instructors are there.

 

[mdf]

Isn't this a conversation about skis that perform better for those that prefer to ski faster with greater forces versus those content to ski at more moderate speeds with less forces?

That's one way to be part of "the few" but not the only. If you want a tail that can finish a turn you are an outlier, too.

 

[James]

The problem is the obsession to make things good in too many areas.

There were the old Monsters, then they dissappeared, then came back. So, what’s really new?
The Renoun Z90 wasn’t a great all arounder. In fact, with original binding marking line, it was far worse in powder than a slalom ski. However, it was so much fun on other stuff. Very special.

Isn't this a conversation about skis that perform better for those that prefer to ski faster with greater forces versus those content to ski at more moderate speeds with less forces?

Not necessarily.
First gen Kastle FX’s. 84, 94. Sort of made for AT and resort skiing. Really more of a finesse ski. It wasn’t great at anything, but had an excellent feel. Great for that, so it made you ovetlook it’s deficiencies.

Many people loved those skis. Then they made it “better”. More resort oriented, more power, stiffer. Lost all the special qualities of the original.

 

[Wendy]

The problem is the obsession to make things good in too many areas.

There were the old Monsters, then they dissappeared, then came back. So, what’s really new?
The Renoun Z90 wasn’t a great all arounder. In fact, with original binding marking line, it was far worse in powder than a slalom ski. However, it was so much fun on other stuff. Very special.

Not necessarily.
First gen Kastle FX’s. 84, 94. Sort of made for AT and resort skiing. Really more of a finesse ski. It wasn’t great at anything, but had an excellent feel. Great for that, so it made you ovetlook it’s deficiencies.

Many people loved those skis. Then they made it “better”. More resort oriented, more power, stiffer. Lost all the special qualities of the original.

The most fun I had on my Z90’s was in a foot of “Pocono powder.” But mine (used to be SBrown’s) were mounted ahead of the line. Maybe that makes a difference. Super fun, unique ski that I’ll never sell. I was surprised at its versatility considering its shape.

I guess in order to attract attention and to attract new buyers, ski manufacturers are constantly tweaking their designs and construction. I’ve often wondered if there’s a finite amount of modifications to design that can be done. And some of the Indie ski companies seems to use traditional construction methods and fairly traditional shapes and still do just fine. J skis, for example, sells out of a lot of their models. They may have somewhat progressive shapes, but they don’t seem earth-shatteringly newfangled. Maybe it’s a cult following of sorts. But then again it seemed that the Head Monster had a similar following. Heck, I even owned a Monster 78 as a middling intermediate skier hacking my way around, and really enjoyed the ski in all conditions. It was super smooth and made crud skiing easy for me. The new Kore does nothing for me.

 

[David Chaus]

I have also found the Z 90 to be amazingly versatile, more so than I expected, even pretty decent in bumps.

I think that the finer things will always be available, but not always in the main stream brands. Sometimes for sure, but more likely when you’re looking for that extra bit of performance that rewards good technique, You’re looking at the boutique brands.

 

[cantunamunch]

Since reading the first post, I have tried to think of an industry where the wants of the few outweigh the wants of the many. I haven't come up with one yet.

(Fine?) Art. Not kidding.

 

[James]

The most fun I had on my Z90’s was in a foot of “Pocono powder.” But mine (used to be SBrown’s) were mounted ahead of the line.

I believe that early pair at Aspen were prototypes or very early production. I’m pretty sure Phil told him to move the line back, fairly considerably.

 

[BackWoodsBillSki]

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This thread is for the general discussion of the Article Should the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many?. Please add to the discussion here.

Call me a Boomer but I don't like anti-lock brakes, over-sized tennis rackets, blue-tooth phone conversations, short, chubby, exaggerated side cut skis, or ignorance of Marketing. Product differentiation is a major component of a successful product. "Me too" marketing has ruined many businesses and nearly killed the music industry. I thought I enjoyed skiing until I discovered "the Birds of Prey" runs at Beaver Creek. I worked in the industry and got free lift tickets to the then "new" ski area in 1983 after the SIA ski show in Vegas. Several ski reps were also there and I tried a new pair of Olin Racing 215 cm GS side cut skis. I went beyond my comfort zone skiing with the "reps" for obvious competitive reasons. I'd never before been in a hard carve and notice I was able to "bump" the slope with my elbow in a series of long traverses using the entire width of the near empty slopes. That was one of the best days of my life and I discovered a higher level of skiing. I got a real job and lost track of the ski industry. I still skied and backed down to a pair of 205 cm skis and I assumed everyone I began to see on shape skis were on beginners on rentals. I got back into the industry to do some Advertising projects for old friends who stayed in the industry progressed nicely in their careers. I couldn't believe what I was seeing in the ski racks. I was told the new shaped skis had performance and I tried to a pair that did. They were skiable but didn't fit my style and luckily I still had an old pair of "new" Salomon's I tuned back up. Shaped skis were a marketing gimmick. It's not easy to come out with a "NEW" product every year but companies have to sell to stay alive and skiers did develop more easily but I questioned why their were no real skis and was told it came down to accountants and budgets. Mastercraft quit making tournament slalom waterski boats famous for their torque and low wake. I had gone to a boat show and thought the rep was joking when he said they didn't make "ski boats" anymore. Luckily there are old ones still around, sometimes owned by folks who didn't know what they had. I found an old Supra accidently one day and owned it for little more than what the engine was worth. I flipped 3-4 boats to some happy hardcore skiers who had given up because a good boat, like a good pair of skis, will spoil you enough to give up. Long boards and rear entry boots will be back and hopefully folks will find an instructor with a lot of decades experience, to teach them how to ski. It's a bit like skydiving. First jumps are low and on static line or tandem. You can get lot's of selfie pics that way but your first solo from 12,000 feet allowing about a minute of free fall is as close to flying a human can do without wings or a wing suit. A pair of properly tuned long skis allows more ski edge to distribute speed vibration and confidently hold the ski edge until you are ready to release it, without "skidding". Skiing a lot of "hard pack" is a great way to get to know your ski edges. Ok.... Boomer out, lol..

 

[cantunamunch]

Well, that's a top tier first rant, welcome to the funhouse.

 

[BackWoodsBillSki]

My Audi has a 6 speed manual V6. That combo hasn't been available for a while now. I'm holding onto it as long as possible.

"Me Too" marketing and over engineered products are buzz killers. MasterCraft didn't make a slalom ski boats last time I checked. Anti-lock brakes surprise me still and nearly cause an accident. Music Row in Nashville has been abandoned for a decade, but we got Taylor!. No way possible for a shape ski to hold and edge in a fast carving GS turn and not rattle teeth loose. I guess skidding and drifting are the limits these days. Not my world anymore.

 

[BackWoodsBillSki]

"Me Too" marketing and over engineered products are buzz killers. MasterCraft didn't make a slalom ski boats last time I checked. Anti-lock brakes surprise me still and nearly cause an accident. Music Row in Nashville has been abandoned for a decade, but we got Taylor!. No way possible for a shape ski to hold and edge in a fast carving GS turn and not rattle teeth loose. I guess skidding and drifting are the limits these days. Not my world anymore.

P.S. E36 M3. 99 BMW M3 5-speed Coupe. It's value is increasing, lol.

 

[BackWoodsBillSki]

All I can say is.......

Marketing Department........

Live in a fantasy world and have the skills to convenience almost everyone its a great idea when it really truly sucks.

Unfortunately we all suffer for it. The solution get rid of marketing and really listen to the masses.

Case in point......Pivot 15!

I'm a marketing guy. It's the accountants fault, mostly. And CEO's find job security in "me too" products. That's how we got Taylor Swift. Music Row long gone. Gotta look for what you want/need. It's out there.

 

[BackWoodsBillSki]

Well, that's a top tier first rant, welcome to the funhouse.

You are right, lol.... I'm good now.

 

[BackWoodsBillSki]

(Fine?) Art. Not kidding.

I used to work in Advertising. Dead industry. We are prey now. I read the "capabilities" of those who now do marketing and they literally use the word "manipulate" as a service they provide. Kinda like snipers work.

 

[geepers]

first solo from 12,000 feet allowing about a minute of free fall is as close to flying a human can do without wings or a wing suit.

Great rant! As long as you don't mind ice cream vectoring mid-thread should fit right in.

Going to make a small point on this bit... Free fall is not flying - not in the sense that birds fly. Hang gliding is a lot closer. Yes, some assembly required but spiraling up in a thermal with an eagle is lot closer to their experience. And lasts much longer than a minute.