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Should we practice falling?

Viking9

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I grew up on the motocross track and you definitely learn how to take a hit and anticipate the ground.
I’d like to think skiing is the same for the athletes.
Practice,,,no.
 

jt10000

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If at all possible, you should try to sit down on your butt or fall onto your hip. That would be the safest way to fall. Falling head first down the hill could result in serious injury, even with a helmet. I realize you don't always have a choice, but if you do, choose the safest way!
But in terms of injuries to the knees, I'm under the impression that falling forward is much much safer - I'm worried about blowing out a knee and would not want to try to sit back onto my butt.

And frankly, trying to stay forward might prevent the fall in the first place.

Hips seems OK, but not butt.
 

Doug Briggs

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Moguls make the self-arrest all that more difficult. The first thing I would do is get my feed downhill at any cost. How, of course, is the $64K question. Hands and poles digging in will let your lower body get downhill. You were very lucky that there wasn't a double fall line. I'm glad you survived.

I actually had a telemark class at Wildcat where it was so icy (spring thaw froze solid overnight) that I demonstrated how to use a pole to arrest. We did it on a wide open slope with no risk of hitting anything. It wasn't very steep, but steep enough to actually slide. There are videos of this type of technique that I'll leave to anyone interested to find.
 

KingGrump

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I was going to start a thread about self arrest to get ideas of what I could have done differently.
I fell two days ago on a pretty steep bump run. Snow was actually very nice, not icy or even hard packed but I fell on my back with my head downhill. I felt like a flipped over turtle sliding off on the shell. It took only 12 seconds for me to self arrest. But that 12 seconds felt like eternity yet it got out of hand so quickly. My husband was only 2 feet from me and all he could do was watch me slide off helplessly. First few seconds was spent on finding my bearings since I was spinning around, another few seconds to attempt to self arrest. When that didn’t slow me down, I started panicking. I was very lucky to be able to walk off the mountain without any injuries and continue to ski.
I can’t believe someone upthread said advanced skiers don’t fall, as if only beginners can fall. Accidents happen even to the most skilled skiers. Skiing is a humbling sport and being cocky about it will only get you in trouble. No one goes on the slope expecting to fall and you certainly don’t get to pick how you fall, regardless of your skill level.
I spoke to two of my instructors afterwards and showed them my video and they both said there really isn’t any good way to practice self arrest. You just have to fight for your life in situations that calls for it.


Glad you are OK. You did pretty good there. I have seen worst in that section of Showdown.
Regardless how much we practice self arrest in class. Nothing beats live fire combat. It's all literally instinctive reaction once it happens. The initial panic period do get shorter as we gain experience.

Usually after a unexpected and/or severe fall, I will do a post mortem analysis of the event(s) that preceded the actual fall. I'll then devise and implement preventive measures to reduce the chances of a recurrence.
 

Rod9301

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For skier falls, I think the most important injury is going to be skier's thumb and what you do with your poles .

Proper strap position or even going no straps; is not going to prevent skiers thumb if you're deathgripping the poles during a fall.
If it's possible to learn how to drop or ditch the poles to save your thumbs during a recreational skiing fall (assuming no other whatif circumstances), I think that's a more likely important falling skill to learn.

Skier's thumb is not life threatening or even season threatening, but it's the small but common injuries that are annoying and this is most likely.
Recreationally, there always will be someone who will come along and help you gather stuff up, or you can take your time and and collect up your yard sale.
I don't think you should drop the poles of you fall.

On icy steep terrain, you been to use one pole to self arrest, which is really hard, or more likely, orient yourself very quickly with your feet down and on your belly.
 

raytseng

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youre exactly describing the other circumstances that i said are special such as dont fall terrain because you may die or slide off a cliff.
If you already in that situation where your outcome depends on special advanced techniques that needs to be specially taught, thats a whole different and extremely rare scenario then what the average rec skier will encounter.
The times ive seen someone fall in resort rec skiing and actually selfarrest with a pole and a mountaineering technique like in an action film is zero versus just ragdolling their way down or sliding out. Meanwhile, I've seen many people shaking their hands afterwards or getting ice, and friends who've had various degrees of skiers thumb from falling on poles.
The number of skiers thumbs injuries from deathgripping the poles and immediate short violent impact type falls I wager greatly outweigh the scenarios where a self arrest with pole in long steep accelerating slide type is needed to prevent injury. Except for extreme terrain, for the most part even if you slide for awhile, you are not risking further injury, you only are getting laughed at since it takes you longer to collect up your yard sale.

Anyway you do you, your conditions, ski runs, and circumstances and skiing style maybe different than mine; so if that's in your toolbag for those special circumstances change your tactics; but that's my take on the topic that for vast majority of rec skiing falls: skiers thumb injury is the most common skier fall injury, even if it's not very dramatic or life threatening.
 
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François Pugh

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Looking back, I can say that learning breakfalls in Judo and Karate Do did help me out quite a bit. Learning to keep my skis in the air and away from the evil snow trying to tear my knee ligaments was something that happened though many years of falling.

Advice? Like they tell the boxers, protect your head at all times. If you fall backwards curl chin to belly button to help protect the back of your head. If it's steep and there's danger ahead, hang onto at least one pole so you can use it to self arrest. Use your forearms (ulnas) to deflect off things if you can instead of hitting them directly; you can reinforce your forearms with your ski poles. Saplings do a much better job of slowing you down gradually than big trees. If you get launched 20 feet in the air, try not to fall with your ski between your arm and the ground; that hurts ogwink .
 

Dr. Mark

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My ski buddy who is an orthopedic surgeon showed me a different way to hold my poles in order to avoid the injury he called "gamekeeper's thumb." I used to grip the pole straps inside my hand, but now they just hang loose around my wrists.
 
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FlyingAce

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@KingGrump Slim Slidell crossed my mind immediately and I remember thinking “but he is facing the slope”! I tried to grab onto anything but there was nothing and near impossible with my palms up. Then I realized my skis were still attached and I remember thinking “My knees! My knees! Save my knees!”
A few more seconds I might have ended up in St. Bernard...
 

SSSdave

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Falling on steep slopes where given momentum, a body may slide requires a different strategy than where one will not. I have taken only one long fast slide so, and that ended my season in 1997 due to a knee strain (High Yellow Gully with rocks...Alpine) when a ski caught an edge in the snow before I could raise both skis up while speeding on my back/side. It is true sans skis, a long fast slide staying in a position while no objects are below may not be too dangerous however with skis attached not so and with obstacles gruesome possibilities.

The only thumb injuries I've suffered were all during my first decade skiing. Always have my hands in straps skiing where a slide is possible because the prime directive on such slopes regardless of how steep is to self arrest instantly upon hitting the snow before gravity momentum makes that difficult. Especially true with rocks or trees below in a slide path. When as someone that hikes and climbs in mountains (not skiing), I do fall, am like a cat automatically twisting my worm body to right myself. And on steep snow upon hitting to stop, am going to use my ski edges if possible and my pole grips to dig into the snow with maximum pressure.

Once sliding starts avoiding ski edge catching is the prime danger. The second directive if ski(s) are still attached is to position it in a way, like on one's back head down skis in back up so, so an edge won't catch.
 
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James

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wow, that’s some quick acceleration @FlyingAce .
Some years ago at

At ESA Aspen we practiced self arrest with Schantzy for some time before going to Highland Bowl. On a pretty steep section of a groomer where no one was.
We were released feet first, head first, both prone and supine. With and without skis, mostly without, and with poles.

But real situations begin with a lot more acceleration and disorientation. In some snow conditions digging the feet in leads to rag dolling head over heels. That happened to Ursula at BigSky while we were waiting to come down and couldn’t see. The guy videoing from below was so freaked out he stopped filming. After she stopped and collected things she skied off to teach a class.:geek:


Except for extreme terrain, for the most part even if you slide for awhile, you are not risking further injury, you only are getting laughed at since it takes you longer to collect up your yard sale.
Well now we’re getting rid of straps and LEKI attachments?
I’d want my poles, whether I could manage to dig them in is another question. As to whether it’s “extreme” terrain, it reminds me of skiing Taos 20 years ago. Back then “extreme skiing”was a new buzz word.
At lunch after the morning SkiWeek group, a couple people in the were talking about the West Ridge. A lady who was part of their group but in a lower level asked, “Is that extreme skiing?”
We answered no, then someone came up with, “It’s beginner extreme”
 

Rod9301

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Falling on steep slopes where given momentum, a body may slide requires a different strategy than where one will not. I have taken only one long fast slide so, and that ended my season in 1997 due to a knee strain (High Yellow Gully with rocks...Alpine) when a ski caught an edge in the snow before I could raise both skis up while speeding on my back/side. It is true sans skis, a long fast slide staying in a position while no objects are below may not be too dangerous however with skis attached not so and with obstacles gruesome possibilities.

The only thumb injuries I've suffered were all during my first decade skiing. Always have my hands in straps skiing where a slide is possible because the prime directive on such slopes regardless of how steep is to self arrest instantly upon hitting the snow before gravity momentum makes that difficult. Especially true with rocks or trees below in a slide path. When as someone that hikes and climbs in mountains (not skiing), I do fall, am like a cat automatically twisting my worm body to right myself. And on steep snow upon hitting to stop, am going to use my ski edges if possible and my pole grips to dig into the snow with maximum pressure.

Once sliding starts avoiding ski edge catching is the prime danger. The second directive if ski(s) are still attached is to position it in a way, like on one's back head down skis in back up so, so an edge won't catch.
Could you explain the last sentence?
 

SSSdave

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Could you explain the last sentence?
Speeding sliding head downward on side/back skis elevated in back to not catch. Am not experienced enough to describe how to do so with authority haha, something you would have more to add about and have thought through. Note there are plenty of steep drops in my olde age I have no interest in challenging like I did when young though regularly practice such gymnastic moves in steep bumps jump turning.
 

Rod9301

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Speeding sliding head downward on side/back skis elevated in back to not catch. Am not experienced enough to describe how to do so with authority haha, something you would have more to add about and have thought through. Note there are plenty of steep drops in my olde age I have no interest in challenging like I did when young though regularly practice such gymnastic moves in steep bumps jump turning.
It's a really bad idea to slide head first.
As soon as you can, ie immediately, get on your belly skis below you and start applying edge, gently first then forcefully, you want to stop asap.
 

KingGrump

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@KingGrump Slim Slidell crossed my mind immediately and I remember thinking “but he is facing the slope”! I tried to grab onto anything but there was nothing and near impossible with my palms up. Then I realized my skis were still attached and I remember thinking “My knees! My knees! Save my knees!”
A few more seconds I might have ended up in St. Bernard...

Nah, you will never end up in St. B from there. There is a dished section where Wayne Abby cuts into Show Down. That should stop you. :duck:
Few seasons back in the spring, bad snow year. I fell at the same spot. Probably the same bump. :P I was wearing a puffy that had the slickness of a well oiled garbage bag. Playing turtle after tripping on one of the many weeds there. It was a slow motion slide that just won't stop. Every time I hit a bump, I would slow way down. Then I would go over the the flat top and pick up speed again. Did about 7 bumps like that. No physical injuries other than my pride. It was the hot conversation topic of the week for the instructors I was skiing with that day.

years ago. Back then “extreme skiing”was a new buzz word.
At lunch after the morning SkiWeek group, a couple people in the were talking about the West Ridge. A lady who was part of their group but in a lower level asked, “Is that extreme skiing?”
We answered no, then someone came up with, “It’s beginner extreme”

We have lost quite a few off the West Basin Ridge during various ski weeks. I was told it felt like stepping into an 800 feet express elevator. :geek:
 

SSSdave

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It's a really bad idea to slide head first.
As soon as you can, ie immediately, get on your belly skis below you and start applying edge, gently first then forcefully, you want to stop asap.
Thanks for that experienced corrected input, thanks! Makes sense if one can gradually offer resistance of skis below.
 

Doug Briggs

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There is plenty of dispute about skier's/gamekeeper's thumb and how to avoid it. Not using poles this the most obvious.

My opinion is that this is the correct way. Method A

This method allows you to release your grip and for the pole to fall away from your hand.

And this is the incorrect way. Method B

No matter what you do with this method the pole is retained to some degree in front of your hand thus becoming a potential threat to your thumb.

I'm not an orthopedist. I'd like to see his suggested method. Is it Method B? If so, what is his reasoning for it reducing injury?
 

raytseng

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I think there is overly focus on the different right ways of strap usage. Yes I acknowledge and know there are wrong ways; and several right ways. And the right correct way is also more for proper trekking pole / xc poling techniques. But in the discussion of skiers thumb, the more important action to discuss is to drop the poles versus deathgripping them(again for regular rec skiing, not for special circumstances) imo. The overfocus on correct strap usage has the false assumption that wrongstrap usage is the only reason that causes/prevents this injury.
 

Doug Briggs

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Method A also works very nicely for poling in alpine gear and is essential for proper starts racing.

I absolutely agree that dropping the pole is an imperative as the pole impacting the hand is a cause of injury.
 

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