Shrink It and Pink It: What Makes a Woman's Ski Different?

[cantunamunch]

Would it make too much sense to build the same ski in a continuum of sizes from very short for children up to something that would handle the biggest and burliest adult skier?

It's a complete PITA to scale flex characteristics especially in natural materials like wood. The exact same build, if right in the 176-184cm sizes, would be waaay too stiff in the short sizes. So you need to graduate changes, including thickness and composition, as you scale. That's added ski cost right there.

It's also a complete PITA to keep the same or even similar turn radius/ taper characteristics as you scale overall length. The sidecut in the shortest lengths fairly must be completely different than in the longest.

So ... a completely different ski in various sizes, carrying the same numeric designation. You see where this gets confusing?

There wouldn't be men's, women's and children's designations. Everyone could be fitted to the ski that best suits their height and weight and skiing style. It wouldn't be hard to imagine a family where everyone is on the same ski, but Mom is on the longest ones, the teens in the middle and Dad is on the shortest ones.

I sense yet more confusion.

There is considerable overlap in sizes between adults and kids and between men and women. The special designations of men's, women's and kid's skis seems more of a marketing gimmick than a practical solution.

Maybe so, but engineers love them because they specify the direction one can err in. E.g. a slightly too stiff flex in a unisex downscaled ski is something one can get away with - but not in a womens' or junior ski.

 

[Monique]

Would it make too much sense to build the same ski in a continuum of sizes from very short for children up to something that would handle the biggest and burliest adult skier? There wouldn't be men's, women's and children's designations. Everyone could be fitted to the ski that best suits their height and weight and skiing style. It wouldn't be hard to imagine a family where everyone is on the same ski, but Mom is on the longest ones, the teens in the middle and Dad is on the shortest ones.

There is considerable overlap in sizes between adults and kids and between men and women. The special designations of men's, women's and kid's skis seems more of a marketing gimmick than a practical solution.

Ugh. I already see too many cases where the dude chose his ski, then gets the lady in his life the same ski, or the women's version. Rarely is it the case that both people, let alone the whole family, would benefit from being on the same model of ski.

 

[Monique]

The exact same build, if right in the 176-184cm sizes, would be waaay too stiff in the short sizes.

Seems like that happened with the new Enforcer.


FWIW, I do think the women's designation isn't ideal. How many lightweight guys will be comfortable skiing a "women's" ski just because it has the performance characteristics they need?

Of course, it's not just flex and length. Women's skis sometimes (not always) have suggested binding mount points more forward than the men's counterpart. And of course with integrated bindings, you don't get a choice.

The fact that there are sooo many different ways to manufacture women's skis (from same construction with different lengths and graphics, to same but softer materials, to completely different, and then let's add mount point changes) suggests that there's not actually any common definition for a women's ski - therefore it's a misleading designation.

 

[cantunamunch]

Ugh. I already see too many cases where the dude chose his ski, then gets the lady in his life the same ski, or the women's version. Rarely is it the case that both people, let alone the whole family, would benefit from being on the same model of ski.

This is exactly where my concept of 'dealer cust.' might come in.

 

[cantunamunch]

Of course, it's not just flex and length. Women's skis sometimes (not always) have suggested binding mount points more forward than the men's counterpart. And of course with integrated bindings, you don't get a choice.

The fact that there are sooo many different ways to manufacture women's skis (from same construction with different lengths and graphics, to same but softer materials, to completely different, and then let's add mount point changes) suggests that there's not actually any common definition for a women's ski - therefore it's a misleading designation.

Again, my concept of 'dealer custom' would deal with this. Not directly but in practice. The dealer picks the platform, the mounting point and the flex.

I know this is starting to sound like Surefoot to boots, but I think applying it to skis would be more robust - and give dealers name recognition.

 

[cantunamunch]

Seems like that happened with the new Enforcer..

It happens allatime - and I'm very glad skis do limited size runs.

 

[Monique]

Again, my concept of 'dealer custom' would deal with this. Not directly but in practice. The dealer picks the platform, the mounting point and the flex.

I think the problem is that the people who would need this guidance most, are the people most likely to want to get a discount pair from a big box store. I'm also not sure about mount point - I've yet to hear anyone have a strong opinion on where anyone else's mount point should be, and usually those who care about mount point can't even figure out their own preferences without a lot of demo'ing. And if you can't figure it out for yourself, it's hard to imagine how you're going to figure it out for people you've just met who are ... unreliable narrators at best about their skiing.

 

[cantunamunch]

I think the problem is that the people who would need this guidance most, are the people most likely to want to get a discount pair from a big box store. I'm also not sure about mount point - I've yet to hear anyone have a strong opinion on where anyone else's mount point should be, and usually those who care about mount point can't even figure out their own preferences without a lot of demo'ing. And if you can't figure it out for yourself, it's hard to imagine how you're going to figure it out for people you've just met who are ... unreliable narrators at best about their skiing.

This is why I watch House

 

[Monique]

This is why I watch House

It's never lupus!

 

[cantunamunch]

But seriously, I think larger ski hire outfits in Yurp may already be well on their way to implementing what I'm thinking of. If airlines keep the ski fees up it may happen here too.

 

[Don in Morrison]

I think my viewpoint is still influenced by what the ski world looked like before I took an 18 year break from skiing. In 1984, each brand had maybe 8-10 models to choose from, (and 3 of those were SL, GS and DH) and the ladies just used a shorter version of what the men used, and the smaller men used the same ski that similarly-sized women used and the tall women were on 200's. There were more guys than gals on the stiffer racing skis, but I think that was more a cultural thing than an accurate matching of ski to skier.

When I came back in 2002, each brand had 4-6 different skis for each of a half-dozen categories, (and shops typically don't carry the racing skis any more) and I still don't see why they're all necessary. Then there is the same proliferation of skis for women too, and there are more models available from each brand that aren't present in the store.

And with all that proliferation, sometimes the only thing smaller men can find that has the right performance characteristics, has flowers on the topsheet.

 

[Monique]

And with all that proliferation, sometimes the only thing smaller men can find that has the right performance characteristics, has flowers on the topsheet.

Of course, the opposite has been the case since the dawn of time ...

 

[Swede]

Phil,

Any recommendations for my 15 year old daughter, former U14 racer, turned freestyle aerialist (USST-EADP). Last year we dumped her race skis (150 FIS slalom tweeners and 162 GS skis) and got her a pair of Volkl Kenja's. She hates them. They are too wide underfoot. She is a very aggressive skier who has been skiing since 10 mo's. Would the Head Joy or Rossi 88's be a suggestion? She needs something that will carve and hold well on groomed runs, but can also be taken all mountain. Her skiing is mostly in Park City, Lake Placid and Mt. Rose when home in the spring. Performance is critical as she rips when she is not training. She is 5'4" 125 lbs.

My daughter 116 lbs 159 cm 14 y/o and 1st year U16 racer has been skiing Völkl Yumi as her "play ski". It can rip. Very good bite on hard pist. 83 under foot, discrete rocker and csmber under foot, so a little more versatile w/o going full cafeteria tray. She skis it in 161 for the versatility, but must admit that the 168 was better for laying down arcs (she tried both). As a ref she's on Rossi HERO FIS 150 SL, 170 in GS (most pro'lly move to 175 to get the 23 radius now) and 186 in SG (will bump one size up this season).

 

[Sibhusky]

I've still never owned a pair of women's skis. I've demoed them, and returned them. Maybe as I age...

 

[Monique]

I've still never owned a pair of women's skis. I've demoed them, and returned them. Maybe as I age...

Weirdly, most of my skis right now are women's designs. In the past, all sorts of combos, including all men's/"unisex" skis.

 

[Philpug]

I've still never owned a pair of women's skis. I've demoed them, and returned them. Maybe as I age...

Not all womens skis are created equal as you can see. Not all women are are equal either.

 

[AmyPJ]

Not all womens skis are created equal as you can see. Not all women are are equal either.

It is kind of interesting to me that some of my favorite skis of late are just a "shrinked and pinked" men's ski--Volkl Kenja (same as Kendo) and Volkl 90Eight. In fact, I demoed the 90Eight in the men's version, in a really long length for me, too (173.) They were awesome! I keep hoping I'll win some from @SkiEssentials

But I also love my Santa Anas, which are a women's specific design. I didn't try the Enforcers, but based on the women here who HAVE tried them, particularly in the shorter length, they are a much different ski than the Santa Ana.

All this talk about skiing...and we just sit and wait for snow. It's got me a wee bit cranky and antsy!

 

[Ecimmortal]

I came across this today: http://www.girlsdoshred.com/blog/gear-for-hard-charging-women-skis

may be relevant to the conversation depending on the skier type.

 

[ADKmel]

having grown up only skiing men's skis and racing on the boy's/men's team.. I guess my first "women's ski was the Peaks Rossi designed by Peekabo Street.. they ripped. first shaped ski I had too and they were 185cm. I loved them.. Since then I've had mostly men's skis until Atomic made the Ladies ski that turned into Heaven's gates now they are Cloud 11's.. There's usually more metal in the men's skis and since being on the light weight yet powerful carving of the Atomics I doubt I'd go back.. But I do still demo men's skis (just in case) Our local demo day the first year the store brought beginner women skis and all the ladies at my Mt took all the men's skis to demo.. that never happened again, now they bring a flotilla of ladies skis (and men's) from beginners to race.. demo demo demo is mandatory with all the cool technology in skis!!

And I'm going skiing tomorrow.. OKEMO is open!

 

[cantunamunch]

hSince then I've had mostly men's skis until Atomic made the Ladies ski that turned into Heaven's gates now they are Cloud 11's..

Balanze?