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gwgardner128

In the parking lot (formerly "At the base lodge")
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Hey everyone! I am a student at Lehigh University studying business and entrepreneurship. For one of my classes I've been tasked with creating a solution to one of the biggest problems in skiing, ACL injuries. Personally I ski a lot so I definitely have my own opinions on how it could be done, but I was interested to see what you guys think. I'm aware of knee bindings, but have heard a lot of complaints about them, and think there could be a better alternative. Is there any other things that I should look into? Also, if you have a minute and could fill out this survey (takes literally 30 seconds) it would be really helpful for my project. https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/QN3JMXH
Thanks!
 

jmeb

Enjoys skiing.
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Start reading everything you can by Rick Howell.

I'd recommend this article and the entire, dense, comment thread. https://www.wildsnow.com/15123/tech-binding-release-testing-acl-broken-leg/ .

Any "better alternative" to the Knee bindings still fundamentally requires lateral release at the heel to help prevent knee injuries.

The biggest problems with a "ski binding to prevent acl injury" are:

- design
- production
- epidemiological or biomechanical proof that they work.

Marketing ain't the issue.
 

Ken_R

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I guess the ideal binding would have lateral and vertical release at both the heel and the toe. I dont think one exists.
 

BC.

NEPA ShopRat/Skier
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Hey everyone! I am a student at Lehigh University studying business and entrepreneurship. For one of my classes I've been tasked with creating a solution to one of the biggest problems in skiing, ACL injuries. Personally I ski a lot so I definitely have my own opinions on how it could be done, but I was interested to see what you guys think. I'm aware of knee bindings, but have heard a lot of complaints about them, and think there could be a better alternative. Is there any other things that I should look into? Also, if you have a minute and could fill out this survey (takes literally 30 seconds) it would be really helpful for my project. https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/QN3JMXH
Thanks!

While studying your survey....go have a beer at Tally Ho.... Go Mountsin Hawks!
 

Philpug

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While studying your survey....go have a beer at Tally Ho.... Go Mountsin Hawks!
Or wings at 3rd Street Chicken and Ribs...or a Yocco's dog.
 
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jmeb

Enjoys skiing.
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I guess the ideal binding would have lateral and vertical release at both the heel and the toe. I dont think one exists.

Pair a knee binding heel with a Geze-based toe (such as you find in the Pivot / SPX 12 & 14) and voila. Many other toes have upward compensation (eg STH, single-pivot Look toe), but I don't think other officially have upwards release.

Interestingly, there is one other heel out there that offers lateral and vertical release besides the knee binding -- the Marker Kingpin.
 

Ken_R

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Pair a knee binding heel with a Geze-based toe (such as you find in the Pivot / SPX 12 & 14) and voila. Many other toes have upward compensation (eg STH, single-pivot Look toe), but I don't think other officially have upwards release.

Interestingly, there is one other heel out there that offers lateral and vertical release besides the knee binding -- the Marker Kingpin.

The Marker Kingpin heel piece is really a work of art. It is awesome. Now they need a toe piece that is equally innovative.
 

eok

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... For one of my classes I've been tasked with creating a solution to one of the biggest problems in skiing, ACL injuries. ... Also, if you have a minute and could fill out this survey (takes literally 30 seconds) it would be really helpful for my project. https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/QN3JMXH
Thanks!

I participated in the survey, but I have to say: I personally believe you are surveying the wrong target group. The regulars in this forum are mostly dedicated long time skiers... who will choose to ski regardless of advances (or the lack thereof) in ski binding tech. Thus, the people I'd think you'd want to target will not be found in this forum at all... because they are not skiers.

I'm saying this because I have sometimes found myself in social situations filled with non-skiers and - sometimes - the subject of me being a skier comes up. They ask me why I do it and I recite the typical reasons most people in this forum love to ski. In turn, I'll usually suggest the non-skiers give the sport a shot with a "Hey, you should try it, you'd probably love it." But the response to this is almost always negative. Besides cost and time, a common reason I hear for not giving skiing a shot is fear of injury and the associated impacts (medical costs, lost work days, potential loss of job, etc). It's a big deal.

I really feel that any significant advance in binding safety would bring more individuals to the sport.

I miss the days when a plain 'ol tibia fracture was the "worst case scenario" I feared as a skier decades ago. I'd take that over a major ACL+MCL+meniscus tear/rupture (and the tibia plateau fracture that often happens when those ligaments let go) any day.
 
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Ken_R

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I really feel that any significant advance in binding safety would bring more individuals to the sport.

For sure yea.

The main issues or concerns first timers tell me are:

Gear, the main complaint is usually about clunky plastic boots that are hard to walk in and a lot of times uncomfortable and cold. The second, carrying skis!

Then come concerns about safety, specially not from first timers but lower level enthusiasts / travel resort skiers that log in about 10-15 days a year.
 

Dwight

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Hmm, in my 7 years of ski patrol, ACL,MCL is the least of the injuries we see.
 

eok

Slopefossil
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Hmm, in my 7 years of ski patrol, ACL,MCL is the least of the injuries we see.

So you follow-up on all injured skiers you manage to learn the exact injuries, or do you have an MRI in your backpack?

I've blown my ACL. My wife has blown her ACL+MCL. I have a couple acquaintances that have blown their ACL. In all those cases, ski patrol didn't diagnose - other than to identify knee trauma as the injury. They didn't join us on the trip to the hospital/clinic either.
 

Monique

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I've blown my ACL. My wife has blown her ACL+MCL. I have a couple acquaintances that have blown their ACL. In all those cases, ski patrol didn't diagnose - other than to identify knee trauma as the injury. They didn't join us on the trip to the hospital/clinic either.

Me, too. Ski patrol was very careful not to give even the whiff of an impression that they had a diagnosis.
 

eok

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Me, too. Ski patrol was very careful not to give even the whiff of an impression that they had a diagnosis.
Right. It's just not possible. Perhaps possible if the resort has a good clinic on site and a real orthopedic surgeon.

The other issue is HIPAA. The role of Patrol is not that of a paid medical professional (although, there are plenty of Patrol whose day job is being a medical professional). This means HIPAA applies to a patroller like it does to any non-medical provider citizen. Thus, Patrol cannot get detailed info on a specific patient's post-injury medical status without the patient first filling out a form that grants the specific patroller that privilege.

Yet another issue is that - in any sport - ACL/MCL ruptures can go undiagnosed for weeks, months or even years. Pretty common scenario: initial knee injury, athlete refuses to acknowledge it might be serious and insists it's just a sprain, won't see an 'ortho and decides to brave it. Some time later, the knee becomes so problematic the athlete relents and finally seeks help. Speaking from experience on this one.

I've seen too many times at ski resorts; where the person is probably there on a multi-day ski vacation, with family/friends. Blow their knee earlier in the day, won't act on the injury and then spend the rest of the vacation limping around in the lodge (or parking lot) trying to "walk it off". I'm sure some of these folks just had a sprain, but a few probably needed to get diagnosed ASAP.
 

neonorchid

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I participated in the survey, but
-
I really feel that any significant advance in binding safety would bring more individuals to the sport.

I miss the days when a plain 'ol tibia fracture was the "worst case scenario" I feared as a skier decades ago. I'd take that over a major ACL+MCL+meniscus tear/rupture (and the tibia plateau fracture that often happens when those ligaments let go) any day.
- I don't agree. I doubt they know whats going on wrt knee ligament injuries and "current" binding/ski technology, I suspect many skiers don't know either.
Not to compare statistics, but living in the flatlands I meet more people who have blown ACL's and torn minscius from every popular and common sport other then skiing.

- The good old days of straight skis vs the modern shaped skis love-hate relationship with our knees that are much easier on 'em until they decide to go for a ride in opposing directions either durring a wipeout or ending with a wipeout.
When I read a seasoned reviewer say a ski is hooky I put said ski out of my mind and will pass by it at the demo tent without a second thought.
 

KevinF

Gathermeister-New England
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Regarding ski patrol diagnosis... when I broke my arm I did get a diagnosis from patrol (dislocated).

For the record, the EMT’s transporting me to the ER gave me the same diagnosis. I asked what they’d do at the hospital and was told “painkillers, pop it back in, you go home”. I liked that answer since I had very bad memories of the healing process involved with fractures.

Once they got some X-ray’s and discovered a fracture, well... I wasn’t happy about the truth, but it’s not like I can argue for a better outcome.

Note that the patrol and EMT’s were awesome. They did what they could. Point is even trained medical professionals can’t always accurately diagnose injuries without imaging (MRI, CAT, X-ray, etc).
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
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Not to compare statistics, but living in the flatlands I meet more people who have blown ACL's and torn minscius from every popular and common sport other then skiing.

Or slipping on a step ...

Knees are just really fiddly joints. Someone incurred a lot of tech debt in their design - "We'll fix this in V2.0,, but we have to get this release out NOW!"
 

KevinF

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Someone incurred a lot of tech debt in their design - "We'll fix this in V2.0,, but we have to get this release out NOW!"

Alpha release. Latin for “it doesn’t work”.
Beta release. Latin for “it doesn’t work, but we’ll let customers start suffering”.
V1.0. Latin for “it doesn’t work and we’re tired of fixing it”.

:cool:
 

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