Ski camps: best bang for the improver's buck?

[Yepow]

Hey all,

I know some people rave about the Taos week. I've been looking at a couple week camp in Fernie (could be other locations or other camps, but ideally driveable from SK, Fernie has the advantage of me having accommodation sorted out). The one I'm looking at features 40h of instruction over 8 days (10-3, M-Tu-Th-F x 2), with an optional cat ski day. A bit of video analysis, early one day as well, etc.

All Mountain, Fernie, 2 Weeks | Ski Improvement Courses | Nonstop Snow

www.nonstopsnow.com

For about $2100 CAD I can do this course (minus meals and lodging and lift ticket, I'd arrange all those things myself, assume I have a good place to stay in Fernie). The instructors are all L3-4 from the school. My question is--is this good bang for the buck instruction wise? I intend to call the snow school and ask what they think as well. Have people found an immersion like this (14 days in a row on snow, 8 days of instruction, presumably smaller instructor group, classes 4-6 people of similar age and skill level) useful? Would I do better to spend the same $ in another way?

Let's assume my goal is to become a better skier on- and off-piste and I'm willing to do the drilling.

I know the focus for this particular camp is Brits wanting to get some experience with off-piste, and as you may recall, that's where my boys want to be as well. I also need the technical focus to work on my issues.

Thoughts?

 

[Jilly]

Wow, I didn't even know this type of camp existed in Canada. Warren Jobbit has one that travels too. He's doing some in the east. Personally I would do 1 week in Banff with my own car.

Go for it.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I looked at the course info on the website. I don't know anything about this camp, have no experience skiing at Fernie. But I've done numerous week-long camps of various sorts. Some were good, some were not-so-good. It's hard to predict. Like any classroom experience, it all depends on the teacher and how the students click with that teacher. But good management from the top can help the best results happen. Bad or inexperienced management can make best results more difficult and hit-or-miss.

The one factor that may tell you something about how well this camp is managed is how long the ski school has been offering it.

My advice would be to call the ski school director or whoever is in charge and ask how long has the camp has been running. Also ask about the person/people who have on-the-ground control of the camp and who do the hiring. Are those people new to the program this upcoming year, or are they returning to run it again after doing this for years? The longer it's been offered, the better the managers know their instructors, and the longer those in charge have been fine-tuning the details, the better the camp might be. A camp of this sort may suffer from unexpected issues if there are new managers who get taken by surprise when things don't go as planned, or when loosey-goosey planning is the way things are done.

Another way to find out just what the camp is like is to find a person who has attended before and have a conversation with them. Can you figure out a way to do that?

Oh, and ask how they divide the groups up. Is it by doing a ski-off? I can testify from experience that it's important for the group members to be of similar skill level and terrain interest. Most skiers are not good at evaluating their own skill level. If groups of friends are allowed to sort themselves into groups without there being a ski off, that means the instructors will be teaching in a difficult situation. Somebody in the group will most likely be getting less direct attention.

Best of luck. All the details offered on the website point to a great camp experience focused on making friends (all the social events), and building new skiing skills under instruction. The social aspect (meals together, lodging included, etc) sounds like a big draw, but that doesn't mean the technical aspects will be weakly attended to.

 

[Yepow]

Thanks LF! Since I posted this I had written to the ski school director and will chat with her before talking about it. Have not spoken to her yet. I will definitely ask those great questions!

The camp has been run a number of years, as I understand it, and since it's guaranteed work, it goes to the most senior L3s and L4s in the Fernie Ski school.

Yes, how things are divided sounds like a great question--I will ask about a ski off or similar. I do NOT want to be committed, up front, to 8 days of mismatched school lessons with the wrong skill level--up OR down! Sometimes you take a not great group lesson but at least it's only $200, not $2k! I honestly don't care that much about the social aspect and so paying extra for that sounds suboptimal I might hope that the same instructors and the like over and over might pay off?

The only other thing I worry about is consolidating skill and practice. One argument for might be "you're working hard on the same stuff for 8 days, should pay off!" The other argument might be "you still can't do this thing, we identified this thing, it's going to take you a while to get it" and days 3-8 of instruction might have been better spent just working on the thing?

 

[fatbob]

Yeah Nonstop started as a Brit gap year outfit offering instuctor training courses about 20 years ago (set up by the son of a Blue Chip CFO IIRC and bankrolled by dad).

They are part of the furniture in Fernie and everything I've seen suggests the coaching programmes are decent for the reasons you identify. The other question I'd ask in group matching is what about if I end up with a bunch of Brits/Euros who've never really skied offpiste/powder before (assuming as a native Canuck that sort of thing doesn't phase you)?

Try asking on snowheads and you're bound to find someone whose done a course with them I think and can reflect on the pros and cons. Nothing is ever perfect and perhaps you won't need the social aspect which people value (assume you can track down poutine, a kold Kokanee and a hockey game using native skills

Edit to add nice typo/malapropism from their website

"they will add to your arson of snow skills"

A bonfire of the vanities indeed

 

[Castle Dave]

I have nothing to add about the quality of the ski camp but after skiing Fernie and Castle for 10 years I would be a little cautious about rain at Fernie. Usually it's great but sometimes not. You pay your money and take your chances. Are there any similar camps at Louise? Even though you would have to cover accommodation it's worth a look.
Also for that kind of money unless you're into the group thing, I would just figure out my main goals then book two or three private lessons with a level 3 or 4 and then practice, practice, practice. More flexible for dates and no chance of miss matched groups.
Hit Morning Glory and Mars in Siberia Bowl if you get the chance

 

[KevinF]

I did Jackson's "Steep and Deep" camp a few years ago; it was a good, fun experience, although I haven't considered doing it again for various reasons. I did a writeup of that experience somewhere here.

At any rate, it struck me that a good number of the participants didn't have "improving" as their primary goal and treated the camp as a multi-day guided tour of Jackson. (Which can certainly be fun in its own right). If that's their goal, that's fine... but it can be a conflict if you're there to learn how to ski (instead of learn how to survive).

I've been doing regular lessons with @Erik Timmerman the past couple years. We've certainly skied "fun" terrain (bumps, trees, etc.), but I'd say the "best" days (i.e., the most resulting improvement) has been spent on flat terrain doing drills that should be easy (skiing at a walking pace for instance). Which is a reflection of the old adage "New skills, old terrain... new terrain, old skills".

It's a topic that's worth talking to the program director about.

 

[fatbob]

It's a topic that's worth talking to the program director about.

I think it's inevitable that a focus of such courses is getting around the mountain and finding fun little niches for the experience (no doubt Fish Bowl and Anaconda Glades etc are on the agenda for the suitably skilled).

There's little point in going somewhere with great terrain and then spending your time drilling on groomers, bearing in mind it's an "experience" trip for many.

 

[fatbob]

Hit Morning Glory and Mars in Siberia Bowl if you get the chance

Not suggesting a warm up in Corner Pocket? Or down the cheesegrater?

 

[Castle Dave]

Come on - the poor guy is from Saskatchewan
My wife skis it but I don't go anywhere you need a rope to enter a run.

 

[KingGrump]

That is a lot of instruction in a very short period of time. Very often, the experience can be very intense. Too intense for some. Lots of stuff to assimilate in a short period of time which can lead to information oversaturation/overload.

I have done many Taos ski weeks. The pace is decent and fun. I have also done couple Taos Super Ski Week back when they offered them. Six days, both morning and afternoon sessions. Way too intense for me. YMMV.

 

[Yepow]

They are part of the furniture in Fernie and everything I've seen suggests the coaching programmes are decent for the reasons you identify. The other question I'd ask in group matching is what about if I end up with a bunch of Brits/Euros who've never really skied offpiste/powder before (assuming as a native Canuck that sort of thing doesn't phase you)?

Right. This is an important point. I have spent weeks off piste--just would like to do deeper/steeper/better/with better technique. I don't need a week of being worked up to the blue bowls. When I talked to the nonstop guy he of course said "we'll find you a great group etc" but you don't sell a lot of programs saying "yeah we're honestly not good at this" probably.

I have nothing to add about the quality of the ski camp but after skiing Fernie and Castle for 10 years I would be a little cautious about rain at Fernie. Usually it's great but sometimes not. You pay your money and take your chances. Are there any similar camps at Louise? Even though you would have to cover accommodation it's worth a look.

I've skied Fernie probably 30 days in the last 4 years and yeah, the rain sucks and is more frequent than I'd like. Seeing the terrain UPPER MOUNTAIN "variable" and LOWER MOUNTAIN "machine groomed" is often code for "IT SUCKS". I would love a camp like this at Sunshine or Louise, yeah--the longer the camp goes the more accommodation matters financially I suppose but yeah. Also, for terrain for greens for skill development to get better on piste, Fernie is not great--you are running super slow deer chair to get access to short groomers.

There are no camps exactly like this at Sunshine/LL AFAIK, except maybe a warren jobbit thing, but I'm not good enough for those, I think. Maybe it's suck it up at $300/2h block of privates at sunshine with a L3/4? At least I know there is zero rain, it's close...

Also for that kind of money unless you're into the group thing, I would just figure out my main goals then book two or three private lessons with a level 3 or 4 and then practice, practice, practice. More flexible for dates and no chance of miss matched groups.

And more flexible for weather.

Hit Morning Glory and Mars in Siberia Bowl if you get the chance

If Morning Glory is that run that needs a very short bootpack at the top of Timber, then yes, my son and I did that in 18" of fresh and remains a complete highlight of some wonderful time together. But I'd love to ski it smoothly and continuously rather than as a whole bunch of starts and stops.

Not suggesting a warm up in Corner Pocket? Or down the cheesegrater?

Is cheesegrater that patch of rocks in one of the knot chutes halfway up whitepass which you should avoid? If so I've seen someone do grate there.

That is a lot of instruction in a very short period of time. Very often, the experience can be very intense. Too intense for some. Lots of stuff to assimilate in a short period of time which can lead to information oversaturation/overload.

I have done many Taos ski weeks. The pace is decent and fun. I have also done couple Taos Super Ski Week back when they offered them. Six days, both morning and afternoon sessions. Way too intense for me. YMMV.

Right, I wonder if that might be the case. A lot of skiing, a lot of instruction, chance for saturation/overload, losing a lot if you get injured...

 

[dovski]

They filmed Hot Tub Time Machine at Fernie which has nothing to do with the ski camp .... but I am a big fan of John Cusack movies that involve skiing so there you go

 

[LiquidFeet]

Here's another way to think about expensive ski camps that include meals and après events.

Who goes to ski camps like this one?

--Committed skiers seeking a program where they will seriously focus on building skills in an efficient and effective way, and who are willing to have their weaknesses addressed with improvement as a goal in a group setting, because that's an efficient way to learn?
--People going on a ski vacation with friends/partners, wanting to have a great time together, and interested in meeting other skiers and socializing with them, but not into doing intense "work" in order to improve their skills?
--People wanting to have fun exploring new and exciting terrain in an instructor-led group, who are not interested in getting personal feedback in front of others, who will feel let down if they are taken to mild terrain to do drills where they focus on refining their fundamentals, who want the comforts of a nice all-inclusive vacation with like-minded skiers?
--Skiers who want to learn be getting personal feedback from a skilled instructor who closely watches and analyzes their skiing?
--Some other bunch of some sort?

 

[Seldomski]

Looks awesome. I wish I could take a 2 week ski vacation. Looks like their demographic is mostly working professional age? So I guess these participants can work remote or are independently wealthy... or they skip a day or two of instruction during the camp to do remote work stuff.

It doesn't look like 'saturation' would be a big deal here. You get 4 days instruction (M, Tue, Thurs, Fri) and the weekend / Wednesday to free ski (or recover). Starting a little late each day is also good - 1 hr to free ski in the AM or sleep in...

I have done 5 day ski camps with full day lessons every day on consecutive days. I definitely do get saturated by day 4. Day 5 had minimal coaching and was guided free skiing. 5 day with half day instruction, I feel like I am still learning stuff. The independent practice on half days also helps cement things.

Edit to add - the 5 day camp participants were generally very interested in improving technique. There were some that had been doing it for decades though and looked at it as a social club thing. They were in the minority.

 

[David Chaus]

I'll be taking an early December camp at Sun Peaks again this year with Snow Performance. The quality of instruction is excellent, and for myself the benefit of getting coaching early in the season is much more useful than getting the same coaching later in the season.

That said, I'm also planning a Taos week for the first time, so I guess I'm a glutton for punishment.

I observed similar types of programs available at Red Mt, I think it was Canadian Ski Quest.

 

[Seldomski]

I'd arrange all those things myself, assume I have a good place to stay in Fernie

One of the things you can do with camp like this is free ski with other people of your level on days without lessons. Staying with the group accommodations can make this coordination easier. You go to breakfast and find whomever on Wednesday and go ski with them.

 

[mikel]

Who goes to ski camps like this one?

--Committed skiers seeking a program where they will seriously focus on building skills in an efficient and effective way, and who are willing to have their weaknesses addressed with improvement as a goal in a group setting, because that's an efficient way to learn?
--People going on a ski vacation with friends/partners, wanting to have a great time together, and interested in meeting other skiers and socializing with them, but not into doing intense "work" in order to improve their skills?
--People wanting to have fun exploring new and exciting terrain in an instructor-led group, who are not interested in getting personal feedback in front of others, who will feel let down if they are taken to mild terrain to do drills where they focus on refining their fundamentals, who want the comforts of a nice all-inclusive vacation with like-minded skiers?
--Skiers who want to learn be getting personal feedback from a skilled instructor who closely watches and analyzes their skiing?
--Some other bunch of some sort?

And some aspiring patrollers that want or maybe need to work on some skiing skills before making it into the ski patrol training program

 

[fatbob]

Is cheesegrater that patch of rocks in one of the knot chutes halfway up whitepass which you should avoid? If so I've seen someone do grate there

Yep Knot Chutes area, usually best traversed under on way out to Surprize trees.

 

[locknload]

I would love to go back to one of the Whistler Ski camps...like SMS Momentum. It truly was a camp that transformed my skiing in terms of skill and understanding of technique. I really would like to do a ski camp next winter so I'm watching this thread carefully.