Ski chatter

[Bruno Schull]

Ski chatter--what causes this? Gear or technique? In this post, let's pretend it's technique (I made a similar gear-related post in the hard goods section).

Intermediate skier. I can carve, and I can ski off piste, but I can definitely work on my technique.

Cold day, steep piste, hard but not icy, some groomed sections and some loose dry snow. Making controlled, short, round, slarved turns. Got ski chatter from lower/downhill ski. Not high frequency buzz, more like a strong, hard bumping: engage-disengage-engage-disengage, and so on.

More forward pressure? Less? More edge engagement? Less? Weight shift? Body position?

Ideas?

 

[Bruno Schull]

Ski chatter--what causes this? Gear or technique? In this post, let's pretend it's gear (I made a similar technique-related post in the ski school section).

Intermediate skier. I can carve, and I can ski off piste, but I can definitely work on my technique.

Cold day, steep piste, hard but not icy, some groomed sections and some loose dry snow. Making controlled, short, round, slarved turns. Got ski chatter from lower/downhill ski. Not high frequency buzz, more like a strong, hard bumping: engage-disengage-engage-disengage, and so on.

I was riding stable, damp, 108 mm underfoot, rockered skis, mounted at - 6 cm, Warden bindings. Usually these skis work great for me, no chatter and insecurity. I was using newish (this season) boots, Atomic Hawx Prime 130, liners not molded, superfeet footbeds, no powerstrap. On this day, these boots, particularly the boot on the downhill ski (the ski that chattered) felt a little loose...maybe the liner is packing in?

Ideas?

 

[Dr. Mark]

I would think that if your boot feels loose, then your ski isn't getting the consistent, positive direction it needs from you, which might result in chatter.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Could be both. Technique or gear. Or both at the same time. This is where we say "got video"?

 

[Jilly]

What you say in your other thread sounds to me like technique. Too much pressure on that downhill ski. Also trying to carve a wide rockered ski is not going to be as precise as my 68mm tuned down slalom skis.

 

[geepers]

There's a number of reasons for chatter. One fix is go take lesson/s. Or post vid and let the folk here offer more targeted advice.

Another way to get some self-help advice is try the Section 8 Snowsports SkierLab website. Membership is free - you will need an email address to register. There's a specific part on chatter. With the free membership can access the proper page where the intro for chatter seems to fit the description of your symptoms.

Chattering skis are essentially a pressure control issue caused by the skis gripping then suddenly breaking loose then gripping again in rapid succession. It rarely happens when the skis are carving and moving forward through the snow but if they're moving sideways on firm snow...

There's a list of covering about 10 technical and additional factors (equipment, conditions, physiological, psychological). Here's one of the factors...

There's other factors listed that may be more relevant to your situation or may contribute to the answer.

 

[Brad J]

piste, hard but not icy,

, 108 mm

Unless you are the 1 percent of skiers IMO wrong arrow

 

[Mike Thomas]

It's technique not the gear. Different gear- narrower/ stiffer/ more cambered ski and tighter fitting boots- could help to mask the technique... but it's still technique.

-- or maybe you need a Stockli?

 

[Brad J]

It's technique not the gear. Different gear- narrower/ stiffer/ more cambered ski and tighter fitting boots- could help to mask the technique... but it's still technique.

Totally agree and Its 1 percent that have the technique to pull it off on that equipment, I only wish I was one of them

 

[François Pugh]

Technique has to compensate for gear.
What is happening is that when the edge engages (because it is at the critical angle), it bends the ski into a tighter turn requiring more force to hold and the ski gives in torsion so that it is no longer on the correct side of the critical angle to hold. Yes, wrong gear (too flexible for conditions). Gear correction would be get a stiffer ski (while you are at it get skinnier one too). Technique correction would be dial up way more or way less turn, avoid that exact turn that would give you a critical angle.

 

[François Pugh]

Technique has to compensate for gear.
What is happening is that when the edge engages (because it is at the critical angle), it bends the ski into a tighter turn requiring more force to hold and the ski gives in torsion so that it is no longer on the correct side of the critical angle to hold. Yes, wrong gear (too flexible for conditions). Gear correction would be get a stiffer ski (while you are at it get skinnier one too). Technique correction would be dial up way more or way less turn, avoid that exact turn that would give you a critical angle.

 

[graham418]

Sounds like not enough pressure on the outside ski. And with a 108 on hard snow , its going to be difficult to ever get enough to stop the chatter. Unless like @Brad J said, you're in the 1%

 

[Tom K.]

All the above, and maybe an overly-aggressive tune w/r/t edge angles, or a hanging burr on the edge itself, esp near the tip?

And yes, Hawx liners pack down a bit. Stick the Size Adjuster insoles in your liners, under your footbeds, if you haven't already.

 

[Dakine]

Chatter, be it in a cutting tool or a ski, happens when the setup is insufficiently rigid or stiff for the forces applied.
As the cutting edge engages, the edge deflects and releases the cut in a cyclic resonant condition.
To stop chatter you have to take a shallower cut or beef up the setup.
In skiing, that setup is you and your failure to hold your edge angle as the forces build results in chatter.
Of course this is exacerberated by equipment and wide skis have more leverage over you than narrow skis.
Ice skates are near impossible to make chatter because the resultant forces are directly up the leg without a sideways torque.

 

[Choucas]

Both. As mentioned above, darn few folks can arc a clean turn on steeper, hard pisted snow on a rockered 108mm waisted ski. A bit softer snow and a little less pitch and everything would feel a lot better. Dirty Harry was right, "A man needs to know his limitations." Until your technique develops, you have to accept that some snow and terrain conditions, while skiable, will not feel as friendly as others. If you want to cleanly ski this type of snow and terrain, get your boots and skis dialed in to manage that condition/terrain. And work hard on your strength, flexibility, and balance, and get coached up. Otherwise be happy that you're lucky enough to be out on the hill having fun managing the conditions and terrain as best you can.

 

[crgildart]

"Ski Chatter"..

Left Ski.. "Damn, I can't believe they put yellow wax on us when the temperature is 10 below zero."..

Right Ski "I'm going to grab all this snow and refuse to move!"

 

[raytseng]

with the new off the shelf uncustomized boots, the canting may be different from your old boots or the upper may just be way more locked in.
As stated by others for wider skis you must get on edge, and body geometry wise wider is harder on your body to get on edge.
Then I imagine due to the boot just standing still, you all using 40% of your range of motion to just keep the skis flat.

All that being said, if you can't tell why the skis are suddenly chattering, then yea some technique (or experience?) too.

 

[Dwight]

Well, what ski? - 6cm back on mount seems really far back.

 

[Andy Mink]

I run into this fairly often and I know it's me, even on narrower skis. I tend to either not FULLY engage the ski to its preferred radius or push it just beyond. Either way, it's my technique or lack of. I've looked back at my tracks and can see the chatter etched into the snow. It is more likely to happen with a long radius ski that I'm trying to turn shorter, usually to control speed. It also happens when I'm on a ski that is too short for me.

 

[Magoo]

I've been noticing this more this season chatter/hopping on both my Navigator 85 165 and Wingman 86 ti 166. I'm 5'6 #140. Only does it on the super firm steeps. I played hockey growing up so I know how to get on edge. Am I asking to much from the ski be it to tight of turn, to short, not stiff enough?