Ski chatter

[Bad Bob]

Spent some time last weekend daydreaming in a clinic at the side of a wide-open blue cruiser and started watching people going mach schnell down this thing paying particular attention to their ski tips. It was interesting how many were flopping up and down like the needle in a sewing machine (it was not hard snow pretty much perfects hero groomer conditions). Most of them had their weight on their heels, and many were banking their turns making it easier to not pressure the outside ski sufficiently. Would have been interesting to see the top sheets of their skis, suspect they are fairly well marked up by the tips hitting.
Occasionally a strong skier would fly by arcing turns and laying down railroad tracks. Their tips were totally engaged and did not flop.
Technique will often trump equipment.
It was not an interesting clinic.

 

[KingGrump]

The lateral forces on the ski is overwhelming the edge grip of the ski. Producing the engage then disengage cycles. See that a lot in the NE.
A better fore/aft balance and increase the ski travel along the length of the ski should reduce the issue. A rounder turn shape will also help.

 

[crgildart]

If you hockey stop more than carving through your sidecut you're gonna have a chattery time..

 

[Eric Edelstein]

Us woodchucks here in Vermont often get out on 100-110mm skis on really dense hardpack/boilerplate because we think it may have snowed up above the homestead at the mountain (or trusted the resort snow report...bad idea) ...when in fact, there was no new snow and we succumbed to wishful thinking and are stuck with the skis we brought for the day... I often find I can make a properly tuned (sharp tip to tail with very little base bevel) 100-110 ski just great on boilerplate if I make sure I follow the proper procedure and engage the forebody of the ski into the surface, gradually increase the edge angle and pressure along the chassis underfoot and round the turn off the tail with the correct weighting, gradually reducing the angle at transition...ready for the next Set-Reset-Repeat cycle. When I start chattering, it means I have become lazy or tired and start turning the ski sideways instead of feeding it into a carved turn properly from tip-to-tail to either change direction or scrub speed. Chatter for me usually means the ski is horizontal to my direction of travel instead of bending through an arc on-edge traversing the directional vector of where I want to go. Usually I have tipped the ski too far over and it starts hopping down the hill sideways...chatter..chatter...chatter... in a vicious cycle.

When the ski chatters, I automatically ask myself... "self... don't be a dummy... use the ski lengthwise.. not sideways...it's designed to run a turn from tip to tail in an arc on firm snow...not an erratic sideslip with intermittent edge bites with the ski perpendicular to the direction of travel.... reset yourself and fly right..." For me, it's a total technique failure. While those rarified skiers in the 1% can ski any ski on any surface without looking disheveled, us mere mortals need to use the ski properly. In these cases, I wish I could have a coach with me at that moment to point out my errors and how to avoid them on subsequent turns... My guess is a good instructor or coach-type could give you pointers on what mechanical situation is causing the chatter and offer tips on preventing and correcting that ski behavior. Rockered skis in that width category might be more prone to chatter in firm conditions... but proper technique can rail a properly tuned ski that size on hardpack without chatter. I bet it's not every day in those conditions you experience chatter... meaning some days your technique may have been better than others....? It's a constant problem for many skiers when they get fatigued at the end of a day... we see it all the time in the NorthEast...

 

[Average Joe]

Llateral or medial boot cuff /sole alignment is also a good place to start. I see many of my athletes with chatter and wobble of the "downhill"leg who are "cuff strong" and or would benefit from a little bit of sole canting.
Kind of depends of where in the turn phase the chatter is prevelant.

 

[Fuller]

I find that if the top of the turn is done well it has an effect on whether you get chatter in the bottom half. I like to think of it as tearing a piece of paper, start with the tiniest crease and rip it open from there. Part of that solution is due to better edge angles but the incremental loading makes a difference too. Slice it don't chop it.

 

[checksix68]

Josh Foster ski tips are always relevant.

 

[Tricia]

Ski chatter--what causes this? Gear or technique? In this post, let's pretend it's technique (I made a similar gear-related post in the hard goods section).

Ski chatter--what causes this? Gear or technique? In this post, let's pretend it's gear (I made a similar technique-related post in the ski school section).

Sorry, but two of the same thread in two different places gets confusing. Merging the two threads. Let me know where you want them. For now I'll leave them in ski school.

 

[Eric267]

What ski are you on? Height/weight compared to length? Full rocker (no camber), or your standard 3-5mm freeride ski with early rise tip and tail (rocker/camber/rocker)?

 

[Chris V.]

Lots of interesting info here. The question gets complex, it seems. That being said, I saw the advice just recently in another thread that chatter often results from leaning in, putting too much force on the inside ski. I was getting a bit of chatter the other day, remembered that, corrected my lateral balance, and--no more chatter. A distillation of what's been said above might be that the goal needs to be riding the edge of the outside ski, moving with the ski. Of course there's more to achieving that than committing balance to the outside ski--but it's a start, and an issue that probably the majority of skiers have trouble with, so my vote is that addressing it would be a good way to start reducing chatter for many.

 

[vindibona1]

Ski chatter--what causes this? Gear or technique? In this post, let's pretend it's gear (I made a similar technique-related post in the ski school section).

Intermediate skier. I can carve, and I can ski off piste, but I can definitely work on my technique.

Cold day, steep piste, hard but not icy, some groomed sections and some loose dry snow. Making controlled, short, round, slarved turns. Got ski chatter from lower/downhill ski. Not high frequency buzz, more like a strong, hard bumping: engage-disengage-engage-disengage, and so on.

I was riding stable, damp, 108 mm underfoot, rockered skis, mounted at - 6 cm, Warden bindings. Usually these skis work great for me, no chatter and insecurity. I was using newish (this season) boots, Atomic Hawx Prime 130, liners not molded, superfeet footbeds, no powerstrap. On this day, these boots, particularly the boot on the downhill ski (the ski that chattered) felt a little loose...maybe the liner is packing in?

Ideas?

Perhaps the rockered skis contributed a bit to the chatter along with snow conditions? I don't know. But without seeing you, I suspect that L/R pressure distribution and timing of the pressure transfer (and release) combined with an unrefined turn shape and possibly uniquely hard snow might be the biggest contributing factors. Short answer: It's probably a combination of things in a particular circumstance if you haven't experienced this before.

 

[Jamt]

Ski chatter happens because of the sequence:
1. Ski engages because the platform angle becomes critical (90 degrees)
2. Forces increase because of the engagement
3. Increased forces, slack in equipment and reverse balance causes the platform angle to become non-critical and grip is lost
4. Decreased forces causes the slack etc to reverse and we are back at 1.

In order to avoid this you have to pass the critical area.
The best way is to have proper alignment. For example if the knee is outside the force line in step 3 it will be pushed out (part of the slack). If it is inside it will be pushed in (improving platform angle),
Equipment with more slack, e.g. wide skis with non-racing bindings make it worse. Wide skis also make it more difficult to get the knee inside the force line.

IMO, technique wise, the most critical part to avoid chatter is to be dynamic, and with dynamic I mean up and down acceleration (don't want to mix this with dynamic balance). You must be light on the edges when the angle passes through the critical range. If you do that the grip will immediately be rock solid when the edges are engaged.
Quite similar to the ideas discussed in the play with high edge angles thread.
Most people tense up when the get on ice, exactly the opposite of what you need to do.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....You must be light on the edges when the angle passes through the critical range. If you do that the grip will immediately be rock solid when the edges are engaged.....

First time I've ever encountered that thought. Getting that critical platform angle - while it's light - means while you're floating, yes?

How do the folks who enter the turn with full-body inclination, outside arm up in the air, achieve that critical platform angle before they "land"? My guess, since this is not in my toolbox, is they figure out how to stay light for as long as possible at the top of the turn.

So how do they do that, if I'm right?

If that's wrong, then they get their platform angle while heavy, not floating, while fully inclined, outside arm up, body pretty extended. How do they manage getting that platform angle before angulating?

 

[mike_m]

If you move the point of maximum pressure up the hill, then are softening your feet as you move toward the fall line, it minimizes chatter. You are light at the point most skiers are resisting pressure back from the hill. Try skiing "apex to apex" in terms of pressure and let that earlier pressure point deflect the skis across the hill. Also, slice along the ski instead of pushing down on it. Supple outside leg responsive to pressure back from the snow.

Best!
Mike

 

[AmyPJ]

There's a number of reasons for chatter. One fix is go take lesson/s. Or post vid and let the folk here offer more targeted advice.

Another way to get some self-help advice is try the Section 8 Snowsports SkierLab website. Membership is free - you will need an email address to register. There's a specific part on chatter. With the free membership can access the proper page where the intro for chatter seems to fit the description of your symptoms.

Chattering skis are essentially a pressure control issue caused by the skis gripping then suddenly breaking loose then gripping again in rapid succession. It rarely happens when the skis are carving and moving forward through the snow but if they're moving sideways on firm snow...

There's a list of covering about 10 technical and additional factors (equipment, conditions, physiological, psychological). Here's one of the factors...
View attachment 124412

There's other factors listed that may be more relevant to your situation or may contribute to the answer.

This. When I experience this I need to “soften”that outside leg just a touch. I also am not engaging my turns early enough which would help. Chronic bad habit of mine. It gets worse when I’ve been skiing soft snow a ton. In soft snow, the snow does the softening for me. In harder snow, I have to soften.

 

[Jamt]

First time I've ever encountered that thought. Getting that critical platform angle - while it's light - means while you're floating, yes?

How do the folks who enter the turn with full-body inclination, outside arm up in the air, achieve that critical platform angle before they "land"? My guess, since this is not in my toolbox, is they figure out how to stay light for as long as possible at the top of the turn.

So how do they do that, if I'm right?

If that's wrong, then they get their platform angle while "landing" fully inclined, before angulation. How do they manage that?

Kind of, but it is a bit more complicated than that. If you have downward momentum when you engage the edges you don't have to be light, you will continue down for a while anyway.
Platform angle gives kind of a static view on things. If I'm fully inclined and static up-down it is quite different than the same position but when I have been falling for a second.
Angulation wise you need very little in order to have a critical platform angle, the problem is often more that when you are mostly inclined you cannot balance on the outside ski and that can cause all sorts of problems, including chatter.

In speed events you get chatter all the time, partly because you are less dynamic. This in spite being on the most stable equipment there is.

 

[CraigBro]

Us woodchucks here in Vermont often get out on 100-110mm skis on really dense hardpack/boilerplate because we think it may have snowed up above the homestead at the mountain (or trusted the resort snow report...bad idea) ...when in fact, there was no new snow and we succumbed to wishful thinking and are stuck with the skis we brought for the day...

For me it's also cause my wider skiis are softer and poppier, and I wanted them for some tree runs 8^)

I started running into this earlier in the year, with Bent Chetler 100s mounted with Dynafit Rotations. I also think it's a combo of gear and technique. I did use it as an excuse to get some Kendo 88s with Marker Griffon binding, and indeed the chattering went away for the most part.

After a couple days on the Kendos, I took the Bents out on on two days with hard snow and found the chattering really reduced even on them. I attribute it to two things.

The first is a comment during a lesson I took along with my wife who is just starting to alpine ski. The instructor said to pretend your at standing on the edge of a pool, with your toes on the coping and are about to jump in. You lean forward a bit because you have to jump away from the edge of the pool, and you should feel your shins on your boots. He then explained that you can have your shins at 12, or 11 and 1 in order to control the angle of the base. A light went off in my head, and I then went and did a series of consecutive flat spins and skiied switch for 100 yards, amazed at the new stability in my edge control. I was previously trying to ski with just my feet for fine edge control, and was only using the front of the boot for loading up the shovel and not so much actively using it to control edge of ski thru turns and to stabilize them.

The second, was that the Kendos were so stable at speed, I felt alot more comfortable moving fast, and even set my new GPS based speed record-- when I got back on the Bents. I'm sure that more consistent engagement with the front of the boot was part of that straightline stability too. Because of this, I felt safer at speed and subsequently was more patient getting the ski into a turn and up on edge. I have still gotten some chatter, but your description of the causes matches my experience.

 

[Bruno Schull]

Hi Folks,

I thought I'd check back in with some follow-up.

1) @ Tricia: Thanks for condensing the threads--I actually didn't know where best to post!

2) Seems it really is a combination of technique and gear. Of course, the best skiers can ski anything, but for the rest of us...

3) @ the folks who inquired about the ski: The original ski was a custom ski from Folsom skis, 108, substantial rocker at tip and tails, mounted on the reccomended line, which is -6 cm from ski center, so it's a rather centered stance and design. It's a really solid build, with sandwhich construction, a dense wood core, full sidewalls and wrap-around metal edges, fiberglass layup with some carbon. In general, I find it to be the most damp, stable, and smooth ski of this type I've ever tried. I like to say that it feels like Stockli carving skis...just in a big freeride package. Similar skis on the market might be the Nordica Enforcer Free 110 and/or the Blizzard Rustler 10. Of course, I was using this outside it's optimal application, but sometimes you have to cross the piste to get to the nice spots off piste!

4) @ all the folks who exlained the mechanism of chatter: Now I understand the mechanism of edge engagement/dissengagement that leads to chatter. And that makes perfect sense with this ski and boot combination. No matter how stable the ski, it's hard to overcome put enough pressure over that edge in some conditions, especially with my mediocre technique.

5) Another interesting point: I realized that most of the chatter was in my right boot/ski. I'm two years out from a skiing knee injury on that leg. The leg just isn't as strong, and my calf muscles are not yet as large as my good leg--I have to keep the right boot buckled more tightly, and it still doesn't feel right.

6) @ The responder who talked about "feeding the edge and natural curve of the ski into the turn." I like that image, or idea, or way of thinking. I'll try to apply that on the slopes.

7) I was out today, skiing on piste, thinking about trying to get a sense of the whole inside edge of the ski through the turn, and keeping the pressure firm and consistent through the boot and ski, and "feeding" the edge into the turn...and there was no chatter, even on the weak right leg. Then again, I was riding my Stockli Laser SLs, and those are really great skis!

Thanks again folks,

Bruno



sideways

 

[Tony S]

move the point of maximum pressure up the hill, then are softening your feet as you move toward the fall line, it minimizes chatter. You are light at the point most skiers are resisting pressure back from the hill.

I love the way you put this so concisely. This is what seems to work for me. Just came up in another thread, and @Noodler pointed us here. Thanks.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Skis chattering can be either technique or equipment or setup or any combination, so it makes it difficult without photos and knowing you equipment and setup.

However, technique its generally the not right balance of sideways pressure (edging) and downwards pressure (edge set).

Equipment, generally below the level that you require for what you are doing, think beginner ski skied by an advanced skier.

Set up, poor edge set.

Now mix that combination and guess which it it is.