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ski clips to discuss...

WadeHoliday

Out on the slopes
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So, two thread starters that have piqued my interest in thinking about skiing and getting excited to get back on skis have been pulled. One liquid feet posted, and one Eric just put up.

I'm wondering how the mods would recommend these discussions originating?

It seemed to me that both the clips discussed were in the public domain, posted for self marketing reasons and open for free distribution? Kaylin for HellyHansen marketing, Valentina for sponsor and self promotion as well, it seemed? Both very clean images of quality skiing that are good to get the images and ideas flowing... Where do we go from here?

Thx LF and ET for attempting those starts, there was also a clip in there of Paul Lorenz, same reasoning, sponsor and self promotion, and great images.
I also think Paul's comments on transitions and the "argument du jour" of whether extension or retraction turns are the way to go is a fun one. Like so many minor differences in our world today, it often appears the thing to do is pick a transition move you think is superior and be a jerk about it... similar to mtb discussions, pick and wheel size and be a jerk about it, the choice becomes an identity move instead of fun way to play a game.

Anyway, love the images, let's find a way to discuss some skiers who are right on top of their game that can run free...?
Cheers!
Wade
 

Steve

SkiMangoJazz
Pass Pulled
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I agree with you. It wasn't an unwanted MA being done on a poor innocent skier.
It is discussing in high level, the details of the technique used by a top professional.

I don't see why that would not be allowed.
 

LiquidFeet

instructor
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If we can no longer use public videos of technically excellent skiers to clarify what we seek, then the technical discussions here will be worthless. Sure, someone is always going to disagree in such threads. It's the internet. The disagreement about movement patterns can be kept civil by moderators.

Disagreeing about how desirable or not someone's movements are is not the same as disagreeing about the skier as a person. Conducting technical conversations that remain civil involves intellectual rigor and we are capable of it. This sub-forum is known for its conversations involving rigorous analysis of movement patterns. Those discussions happen, involve disagreements, and stay civil, even though they have no all-knowing leader controlling the content for orthodoxy. That is a very sublime thing when it happens, and it's quite rare in online forums.

We should be proud our technical discussions featuring videos of excellent skiers often approach such a high level. Without video to reference, we cannot have such conversations at all. But as of today there appears to be a new policy of shutting down such technical conversations altogether. It looks like the reason for such draconian measures is for there to be no evidence on the forum of disagreement over a known skier's approach to making turns.

Shutting down disagreement is what the PMTS forum does. The reasons why are different, but the result is similar. No one with an independent mind is allowed to say anything that veers off from scripture there. They maintain that kind of agreement by eliminating posts and banning people. It seems like posts and threads that involve independent thinking about movement patterns in skiing, thinking that heads in different directions and reads as disagreement, is no longer allowed here.

Is SkiTalk going to squash independent thinking about ski technique in order to give the impression that we are all in agreement? If it does, ski talk "at a higher level" will surely be a thing of the past.
 
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Tricia

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The distinction is the difference between a pro skier with a video about the thrill of skiing compared to an instructor posting technique.

I am open to discuss this topic, but this isn't much different than when someone posts a stoke video of their ski vacation and having someone post MA without asking for it. That has never been okay.

Note the title of the marketing is
Why we ski, not how we ski.
Yet MA was started with comments about how marginal her skiing was [Quote: My bar for excellent skiing is much higher]

Screen Shot 2020-11-17 at 4.45.21 PM.png

Note threads with Deb Armstrong and other instructors are fair game.

Do you see the distinction? I'd really like to know.


Is SkiTalk going to squash independent thinking about ski technique in order to give the impression that we are all in agreement? If it does, SkiTalk "at a higher level" will surely be a thing of the past.

Feel free to post instruction videos and demonstration videos.



Note: @Mike King is the one who started the thread with Kaylin.
 
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Mike King

AKA Habacomike
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The distinction is the difference between a pro skier with a video about the thrill of skiing compared to an instructor posting technique.

I am open to discuss this topic, but this isn't much different than when someone posts a stoke video of their ski vacation and having someone post MA without asking for it. That has never been okay.

Note threads with Deb Armstrong and other instructors are fair game.

Do you see the distinction? I'd really like to know.




Feel free to post instruction videos and demonstration videos.



Note: @Mike King is the one who started the thread with Kaylin.
Tricia, I thought about sending you a PM about the Kaylin video after Phil locked the thread. It does seem to me that while my intent in posting her video was not to do MA, that MA was fair game. After all, she is an ambassador for Carv, a device that is intended to develop ski technique, and she has made how to ski videos for Carv. In fact, the video was actually a Carv video.

I also agree that it isn't good form to do MA on random bits of video from the internet where the subject in the video is not a professional skier and did not request MA. But I do believe we need to have the ability to include MA of high level skiing that serve as exemplars and alternatives if we are to both have meaningful discussions of ski technique and to develop MA skills amongst both instructors and the interested skiing public.

Mike
 

LiquidFeet

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The distinction is the difference between a pro skier with a video about the thrill of skiing compared to an instructor posting technique.....
Do you see the distinction? I'd really like to know....

One of the things unique to forum talk is lack of control of message. I've started many threads with the expressed purpose discussing topic A. I try to be very specific in the first post and in the title. These threads often gain traction but people end up talking about topic B and C and D, and never getting down to talking about A. I try to bring the conversation back to A but fail. This is typical, and I don't fight it any more, even though it's frustrating as an OP to lose whatever control I wanted for my thread. That's just the way it is online. Thread drift happens; rarely does a thread stay on topic.

Over the years I've discovered so many gems that show up in thread drifts. Stumbling across unanticipated golden nuggets, never hinted at from the thread topic, is a special online thing. I treasure this process. It happens because no one is really in total control.

In contrast, a classroom teacher conducting a discussion has much more control over the content of what gets said. Maintaining that level of control in an online discussion is impossible. People who want that kind of control won't stay active on a forum.

Likewise, when a skier posts a video hoping to keep all comments under control, restricting those comments to the message the skier intended to get across, well you know what happens. Comments get turned off if the owner of the video can't handle the chaos. It's like herding cats.

So here, at SkiTalk, we manage to do remarkably well. Moderation plays a significant role in keeping things civil and somewhat on topic. You and Phil and the mods are responsible for that, and I for one appreciate the concerted effort to maintain an atmosphere of "ski talk at a higher level."

But. A skier who puts up a video hoping for all online commentary to stay within the confines of the words accompanying that video is living in fantasy land. I think it's natural for people to discuss technique when the skier shows us technique but talks about emotional states. We should not be expected to only discuss what the skier discusses, and once that video is public, there's no telling how people will respond. This is not bad. It's the way the internet functions.

My point is that I do see the distinction you are pointing out. But I don't think it should matter.
 
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Lifer

Putting on skis
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Disappointing Tricia responded to Phil's closure of the thread.
 

Tricia

The Velvet Hammer
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Can you all come up with some valid guidelines about what should and what should not be fair game for MA?
If we come to a mutual agreement on it, will you live by it and will you help moderate by putting people in place who rub against it?

Ask yourself this:
Is this something you would say to this person if they were in front of you?


This is good discussion.
 

Tricia

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But. A skier who puts up a video hoping for all online commentary to stay within the confines of the words accompanying that video is living in fantasy land.
What is posted and allowed in other platforms where they post are not our concern.

So here, at SkiTalk, we manage to do pretty well. Moderation plays a significant role in keeping things civil and somewhat on topic. You and Phil and the mods are responsible for that, and I for one appreciate the concerted effort to maintain an atmosphere of "SkiTalk at a higher level."
You (universal you, not personally you) all need to help moderate. Trashing a pro skier who posts a feel good video just doesn't set well with me.

But again, I'm willing to have this discussion and try to come to some sort of mutual understanding.
 

markojp

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I admit I was surprised that K.R.'s vid and subsequent discussion got shut down. She's a sponsored pro promoting a 'how to ski better' product. In that regard, she's no different than Deb Armstrong. Both happen to also be former Olympians. Oddly, there was plenty of comment about both Christine Cooper and Cindy Nelson, neither who are coaching, teaching, or asking for MA that went un-moderated.

Yes, it seems that opinion passing as fact and general ass- hat'ery after about a dozen posts has a special home on pretty much any and all ski instruction forums. I'm sure it's a pain to moderate and takes more energy than worthwhile. If so. maybe it's best just to shut down this part of the forum. In my opinion, that would be preferable to shutting down discussions about the skiing of paid professional athlete video footage used to promote product, services, and ideas.
 

Erik Timmerman

So much better than a pro
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If so. maybe it's best just to shut down this part of the forum. In my opinion, that would be preferable to shutting down discussions about the skiing of paid professional athlete video footage used to promote product, services, and ideas.

QFT
 

geepers

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There's a well-known FB group about skiing where the commentary all too readily descends into "crap skiing". Without offering any insights into what was good or bad.

To date I thought this site had mostly avoided that fault.

Personally I get a great deal out of comments about how some top quality skier is doing something. If something is more (or less) useful in a given situation that's good to know. Can make up my own mind about whether I wish to (or even able to) adopt any of part of some-one else's technique into my own skiing in applicable situations. Some-one else's value judgements about 'good/bad' are not really that useful so tend to just mentally filter them out. Value judgements without any explanation are a waste of internet bandwidth.
 

mdf

entering the Big Couloir
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I hope we can figure out how to keep threads about technique with real content. They are important to many of us.
Strong feelings sometimes lead to too-strong statements. It's good that people care that much about skiing.
I don't see any solution but agressive, careful moderation. It's work, but that's the way it is....
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
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Can you all come up with some valid guidelines about what should and what should not be fair game for MA?
If we come to a mutual agreement on it, will you live by it and will you help moderate by putting people in place who rub against it?

Ask yourself this:
Is this something you would say to this person if they were in front of you?


This is good discussion.

This is exactly where I was hoping this would go; to develop a set of very clear guidelines so that we will all understand when lines have been crossed. Clear for the forum members and clear for the moderators. I'll put some thought into this...
 

Tony S

I have a confusion to make ...
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Please do not shut down this subforum. Shame on you, @markojp, for suggesting this solution, and @Erik Timmerman for supporting him. Or am I missing sarcasm in those two posts?
My sense is that their point is something along the lines of, "You can't talk about ski technique without taking about ski technique." Anyone subjected to what passed for sex education fifty years ago knows exactly what I'm talking about.
 

graham418

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I think that a professional skier, skiing in a professional capacity, i.e. promotional video or such, which is posted on a public arena like the internet, is fair game for MA. Constructive critiques can be informative and helpful.
On the other hand, I would be terrified to ever put up a video of myself skiing. Like being thrown to the wolves!! :P
 

geepers

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Examples I would consider fair game as commentary on any pro-skier vids:
1. This skier <does some movement> at <this point of the turn/bump>.
2. Skiing this way is useful in <defined situation (e.g. steeps)> as it <whatever advantage it confers (e.g. allows for quicker transitions so less time spent in the fall line)>
3. Here's an example of <some normally desirable skiing trait (e.g. disciplined upper body)>

In other words specific commentary about what's going into producing some result.

Note: this applies to vids from pro-skiers.

Prefer not to have to wade through:
a. This is crap
b. This is boring low energy skiing
It may well be the case from the poster's perspective but readers can be at a range of development points. Or simply require/prefer a different way of doing things.

Although positive commentary (e.g. Great skiing) could well belong in the same class it simply doesn't grate as badly.
 

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