ski clips to discuss...

[James]

For him the analysis isn't as important as the feeling.

Nothing wrong with that, it just doesn’t make sense to go into an analysis thread and complain about they’re not talking about feeling. Start a feeling/no analysis wanted thread. I’m not saying he does that, just an example.

Let’s say you have a writing site with a grammar forum. If people start analyzing the grammar of famous or well known writers, it wouldn’t make a whole lot of sense to complain about how they’re not talking about the feeling of the writing, the ideas, etc.

Some people put a lot of effort into their analysis posts. It takes zero effort to say, well I don’t care about that. We’ve lost a lot of good people posting on technique cause frankly it isn’t worth the effort.
And just because a post gets a lot of likes doesn’t mean it’s “good”. I can spend almost no effort on a post and it’ll get a lot of likes while some that require a lot get few.

 

[geepers]

On the civility scale (0=not civil, 5=highly civil) what would you score this?


For context this is Ski Instructor Academy so it's not the usual 'instructor to public' relationship. And it seems that the guy being reviewed is well known to the reviewers which probably provides more license to kid around.

 

[LiquidFeet]

On the civility scale (0=not civil, 5=highly civil) what would you score this?


For context this is Ski Instructor Academy so it's not the usual 'instructor to public' relationship. And it seems that the guy being reviewed is well known to the reviewers which probably provides more license to kid around.

Interesting video. If a teacher knows a student and has a trusting relationship going, then that instructor will know if hard criticism and humor will go over well. Such situations of trust between people asking for MA and people giving it, as you point out, don't occur here online. It takes in-person contact and time to build such trust.

I used to shape my critical comments to my art students very carefully depending on their personalities and what I knew they could take. I have on occasion made funny comments to a student in a group critique that on the surface sounded brutal but were just fine given the context, and they lightened the mood in the group. I've also been very careful with my comments and been ever-so-gentle and had students run out the door in tears anyway (!!!) In the two cases where this happened, the students apologized later to me. Criticism is tough no matter how it's given, but we do need it if we are to learn from our teachers.

Plus, in this thread we need to remember that the two technical threads that were unexpectedly closed without warning were not teacher-student threads, nor instructor-MA-requester threads. The closed threads were commentary among SkiTalk members about the technical aspects of a professional skier's turns. There was no student-teacher relationship to protect and preserve. What's going on in this video between a teacher and a well-known student should not be considered all that relevant to the current discussion we are having.

 

[Steve]

Nor were there any really harsh, unkind, uncivil or overly critical posts. That's the crux of this thing. What's being said happened didn't even happen. One strong criticism by one very well respected poster in one of the threads.

The myth of "things were deleted, there was a lot worse" has not been confirmed publicly or privately. The threads were not up long and I read them multiple times a day. No one has PM'd me "well you must have missed the post where so-and-so said such-and-such."

Moderation in moderation would be my motto.

I honestly think that at this point in time many of the new valuable Instructors (some training directors, some former SSD's, there's been a few impressive people suddenly show up this summer) are going to disappear, and many of the rest of us are going to back off from posting.

The future of SkiTalk seems to be much more about equipment and stoke than about skiing technique. Closely controlled, white bread.

 

[geepers]

What's going on in this video between a teacher and a well-known student should not be considered all that relevant to the current discussion we are having.

I wonder if the casual browser of the SIA youtube channel would be aware of the context. IIRC consideration of casual browsers was at least part of the reason for shutting down those two topics.

 

[LiquidFeet]

.............

 

[markojp]

+1000 on @LiquidFeet's post #122.
Description, analysis, guidance... without evaluation. The problem comes in when judgmental words come into play: "sloppy", "lazy", "weak", "poor", etc. Then it's on to "bad", "not worth responding to", etc.

I can raise critique phrasing in my students' writing without saying it's "bad". I might ask them if to look at it again themselves, asking if that construction is as strong as it could be or if other words would work more effectively. I might even suggest some alternatives, and, if necessary, explain why I thought those alternatives were better. I might even in some circumstances say that I personally don't find their phrasing or construction to my taste. But to just dismiss something as "weak" or "poor" is just facile labelling and not helpful to the individual student or others in the room.

The negative subjective language is a big no no and red flag. This is nothing PSIA NW subscribes to, and neither do I.

 

[markojp]

The feeling thing ... all new movement patterns feel weird.

 

[Skitechniek]

On the civility scale (0=not civil, 5=highly civil) what would you score this?


For context this is Ski Instructor Academy so it's not the usual 'instructor to public' relationship. And it seems that the guy being reviewed is well known to the reviewers which probably provides more license to kid around.

Is this seriously considered rude? If so, I recommend never going to Austria LOL! Imho the dude is being really nice. I think I've done worse than this and my coaches in the past have definitely done worse.

#cultureshock hahaha

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Philpug and @Tricia, where is your thinking at this point?

 

[Tony S]

And just because a post gets a lot of likes doesn’t mean it’s “good”. I can spend almost no effort on a post and it’ll get a lot of likes while some that require a lot get few.

This is pretty important to remember. Of course it applies broadly across all social media ... all media for that matter. Unobjectionable feel good posts get the most likes; challenging posts that question the status quo or push for self examination get the fewest. There is nothing wrong with the former, but the latter keep me coming back and have the most potential upside in terms of growth and learning. This is why I treasure posters like @fatbob, for example, who add tannic structure to the SkiTalk wine.

 

[Philpug]

@Philpug and @Tricia, where is your thinking at this point?

It is being discussed be patient

 

[JESinstr]

The feeling thing ... all new movement patterns feel weird.

Short and sweet. Well stated!

And isn't it also weird that it is generally easier to ingrain new movement patterns into a beginner than change movement patterns in an established skier?

 

[François Pugh]

From the Kaylin thread closure,"We are done here. We went down this trail in the past with the critiquing of Marcus Caston HERE. We have a top level skier that is in dozens of movies and promotional videos that no one here who is questioning her skiing has been in. This is turning into a MA thread of someone who first did not ask for MA and second by people who aren't qualified to offer it. "

From the Frankhauser video thread, after apparent disagreement on what was being shown," Sorry, but if someone want their videos to get critiques for Movement Analysis (MA), they will need to post the video themselves. Thread closed. "

It seems to me like this is a case of the straw that broke the camel's back; the threads got shut down primarily because they were anticipated to descend along well known paths taken by previous threads, but also because (and I could be wrong, but that's the impression I was left with) the moderators disagreed strongly with the opinions being put forward or anticipated to be put forward by proponents considered unqualified to critique the skiers and the moderators had the power to do so. It is their site after all.

Disagreement is to be expected. For example, I too did not see in the Frankhauser video what was described in subsequent posts, although to be specific the difference in what I saw and what was mentioned in posts has no relation to anything yet posted in the thread, and I'll refrain from doing an unqualified MA on a skier who didn't ask for movement analysis. I will say she was doing a specific thing, and imho had she wanted to do some other specific thing (like carve clean pure arc-2-arc turns for example) she probably would have done just that.

I'm not a ski instructor, nor a racing coach, but as a skier who is not blind, I am still able see things, have an opinion, and even disagree with experts in the field.

As @LiquidFeet said in post 3, " Shutting down disagreement is what the PMTS forum does. The reasons why are different, but the result is similar. No one with an independent mind is allowed to say anything that veers off from scripture there. They maintain that kind of agreement by eliminating posts and banning people. It seems like posts and threads that involve independent thinking about movement patterns in skiing, thinking that heads in different directions and reads as disagreement, is no longer allowed here.
Is SkiTalk going to squash independent thinking about ski technique in order to give the impression that we are all in agreement? If it does, SkiTalk "at a higher level" will surely be a thing of the past. "

I hope Skitalk is better than that.

 

[Blue Streak]

On the civility scale (0=not civil, 5=highly civil) what would you score this?


For context this is Ski Instructor Academy so it's not the usual 'instructor to public' relationship. And it seems that the guy being reviewed is well known to the reviewers which probably provides more license to kid around.

5
That is an awesome MA video!

 

[geepers]

Short and sweet. Well stated!

And isn't it also weird that it is generally easier to ingrain new movement patterns into a beginner than change movement patterns in an established skier?

In Projected Productions "Legacy - the Big Talk" one of them (IIRC it's Paul Lorenz) makes the point that in early season everything feels a little strange and it's a great time to imbed some new movement patterns.

Tom Gellie makes a similar point - in early season he says he's again learning to let go and let himself fall into the new turn. We don't allow ourselves to fall very far in normal life so we have to re-learn it at the start of each ski season.

Guys like Lorenz ski double seasons each year, typically totalling 200+ days per. And they still have an adjustment period (!)

 

[LiquidFeet]

It is being discussed be patient

Any progress with those discussions?

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Any progress with those discussions?

I’m wondering the same. I’d like to see this as a place with vibrant, free adult discussion of skiing. Not feeling it now. I’d like to feel like we are wanted here.

 

[Steve]

I started a thread on the bootfitters forum and not a single one has participated.

I miss the vibrancy and activity that epicski had. 10 times the learning to be had. Maybe twice the problems and moderation, but to the user it was worth it.

Maybe we're like the season pass holders that don't buy any food in the lodge. Not the most profitable customers. People asking "what's the right ski for me?" might be more the target audience these days.

 

[Philpug]

I started a thread on the bootfitters forum and not a single one has participated.

I miss the vibrancy and activity that epicski had. 10 times the learning to be had. Maybe twice the problems and moderation, but to the user it was worth it.

Maybe we're like the season pass holders that don't buy any food in the lodge. Not the most profitable customers. People asking "what's the right ski for me?" might be more the target audience these days.

Maybe because most are at thier shops working in the crazy covid environment and being too fatigued to come online to talk about.

Edit: Plus that thread is a third rail and they have to deal with all of the "yeah, buts..."